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Old 01-19-2022, 05:37 PM   #21
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When I was at U of C, their political science department had a group called the Calgary School which was big into the Fraser Institute, good friends with Preston Manning and Stephen Harper, etc. One of my profs even left halfway through the semester to run Harper's election campaign.

They were very Peterson like and gave lectures and wrote books that were very right leaning. I recall one prof advocating heavily that the reserve system should be abolished and all the problems they have are due to corruption and their inability to assimilate into mainstream Canadian society and he had a vilified reputation on the left because of his books on the matter.

All said and done though, just like some of Peterson's lectures which you can find on Youtube, I found some of their lectures to enlightening and utterly captivating and I learned quite a lot that all came back with the recent events in American politics. There are truths and understandings to be found anywhere, but the important thing is that you maintain your own outer shell of critical thinking on top of everything you hear and read.
Are you seriously describing Tom Flanagan and Berry Cooper as "Peterson-like?" They were quiet nerds. Cooper was big into Voegelin and classical philosophy. Flanagan interpreted Louis Riel's diaries. They were actual academics. Peterson writes self-help books.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:42 PM   #22
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So I went in a *very* deep dive into Peterson during Covid and my home Renos. It started with name recognition, turned into really enjoying his older lectures from long before any of this free speech/opposition to Bill C-16 ####, and then a lot of his post-drama lectures.

Hes definitely fallen victim to the things hes against, and this article is a very bad look for him.

But I will say, its very clear if youve actually listened to much of his output. Half of vitriol surrounding him is baseless (like saying he denies transgenders exist). Hes no messiah, but hes not the looney-tunes nazi some people who catch sound bites would have anyone believe.
Somehow in the culture wars we get so entrenched into our own political identities that it's next to impossible to admit that people who own other political beliefs might have said something useful at one point or another or that you can gain something from them. "Clean your room" i.e. sort yourself out before blaming the world and society for your problems is entirely sound advice for some people.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:46 PM   #23
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Oh hi Tom!

Has he joined the nuthouse too? Aside from his modern political writings, I honestly really enjoyed and learned a lot from his lectures on end-times eschatology and cults as well as the Nation of Islam and the civil rights movement.

The eschatology and cults stuff perfectly explains all the crazy stuff about the return of their GEOTUS and savior Donald Trump and Q movements, etc. like their doubling down (cognitive dissonance) after failed predictions of his return to fight their final battle (armageddon) against the shadowy cabal etc.
This was his famous buffalo skin robe that he was gifted by an Indigenous friend he had done consulting with. He wore it to class sometimes, it had matching mittens and ear-muffs.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:51 PM   #24
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There is plenty to criticize him for... But your characterization isn't accurate. Part of the reason society is degenerating is because people are very flippant about accurately representing the facts....
Care to clarify how I've mischaracterized him?

Dude has said he "doesn't understand the gender spectrum conceptually". but hey I'll be generous and grant that even if he can't conceptualize them, he thinks they exist. Meanwhile he refuses to grant them the slightest courtesy of using preferred pronouns.

So let's say that part was wrong, how about I replace that with things like thinking gender inequality/societal hierarchy are "Predicated on competence".

Yeah when a guy essentially refuses to accept that systemic racism or sexism exist within a system, while saying that there aren't enough qualified BIPOC, I'm not about to take his advice on inclusivity and diversity.

Seems to me if your contention is that there is no systemic reason why there aren't enough BIPOC candidates, then you are implying there is something inherent to BIPOC people that results in fewer of them being qualified.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:53 PM   #25
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"Clean your room" i.e. sort yourself out before blaming the world and society for your problems is entirely sound advice for some people.
So someone who has profound mental health problems or physical disabilities but can't access adequate health services due to various societal or economic obstacles to care should sort themselves out first before blaming the world?
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:58 PM   #26
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So someone who has profound mental health problems or physical disabilities but can't access adequate health services due to various societal or economic obstacles to care should sort themselves out first before blaming the world?
Maybe I misunderstood Peterson's message, but I don't think he was really saying that the world and others aren't the cause of many of our problems.

Just that the world won't change to cure us. So it's up to the individual to right the wrongs in their own life. What could possibly be the alternative?
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:13 PM   #27
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Maybe I misunderstood Peterson's message, but I don't think he was really saying that the world and others aren't the cause of many of our problems.

Just that the world won't change to cure us. So it's up to the individual to right the wrongs in their own life. What could possibly be the alternative?

Like if you disagree with the finest western medical minds, you should take yourself to Russia for some real good medicine?


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Old 01-19-2022, 06:14 PM   #28
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So someone who has profound mental health problems or physical disabilities but can't access adequate health services due to various societal or economic obstacles to care should sort themselves out first before blaming the world?
Well...the whole point is to take the most immediate and direct steps to improve oneself first. This isn’t even a strange concept, it’s just phrased and stated in a way that resonates with a certain demographic.

“Be the change you want to see”, “Circle of control” etc it’s the exact same message. Put yourself in the best position for the best possible outcome and improve your life and those around you.

If you suffer from a mental disorder, are you doing the fundamentals that you need to be doing? Getting exercise, eating right, sleeping well? Are you taking your prescribed medication, are you engaged to the maximal extent with the resources available? The point of that message is that if you aren’t as good as you could be, make sure you aren’t contributing to it before condemning everything else.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:26 PM   #29
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Like if you disagree with the finest western medical minds, you should take yourself to Russia for some real good medicine?


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I just think it's a common sense idea that Peterson has turned into some sort of metaphor for a bedroom that is controversial because Peterson said it.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:33 PM   #30
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Is this the equivalent of "pull up your bootstraps" and "solve your own problems"? Essentially "make your own luck?"

Sometimes people need help, whether they know it or not. And society is historically fraught with people who don't reach out for help - for various reasons. This is why things like interventions, street support teams, and social services exist.

If this is the case, it's curious to me that Peterson is promoting this as a virtue, because he himself is an individual who is clearly having a hard time dealing with societal change and the way society is moving. He's condemning things like "woke culture" which is something he's going to need to reconcile with internally because its not going away.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:34 PM   #31
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Its been weird watch him and Rex Murphy who I used to read descend fully into right wing reactionaries. Maybe they were always like this, and I was blind to it, but the pandemic really changed my perception of these people. Getting hooked on Benzos and ending up in Russia of all places was completely nuts.

They rail against the perceived threat of the authoritarian left while being completely blind to the very real and increasingly threatening authoritarian right.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:40 PM   #32
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Is this the equivalent of "pull up your bootstraps" and "solve your own problems"? Essentially "make your own luck?"

Sometimes people need help, whether they know it or not. And society is historically fraught with people who don't reach out for help - for various reasons. This is why things like interventions, street support teams, and social services exist.

If this is the case, it's curious to me that Peterson is promoting this as a virtue, because he himself is an individual who is clearly having a hard time dealing with societal change and the way society is moving. He's condemning things like "woke culture" which is something he's going to need to reconcile with internally because its not going away.
Did Peterson say people shouldn't seek help?
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:43 PM   #33
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Is this the equivalent of "pull up your bootstraps" and "solve your own problems"? Essentially "make your own luck?"

Sometimes people need help, whether they know it or not. And society is historically fraught with people who don't reach out for help - for various reasons. This is why things like interventions, street support teams, and social services exist.

If this is the case, it's curious to me that Peterson is promoting this as a virtue, because he himself is an individual who is clearly having a hard time dealing with societal change and the way society is moving. He's condemning things like "woke culture" which is something he's going to need to reconcile with internally because its not going away.
This is a complete mischaracterization. It's saying that you should do all you can to put yourself in the best position to succeed before blaming the external world for your situation. It does not mean to not reach out for help if you need it. Hell if 'cleaning your room' metaphorically means sort yourself out, it would actually be encouraging you to seek out and get help to do just that rather to do nothing.
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:00 PM   #34
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I’ve personally never understood the Peterson cult either way. He’s not some kind of brilliant cultural figure and he’s also not the devil incarnate. He is actually entirely forgettable.
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:01 PM   #35
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Yeah, I'm gonna guess that the guy who essentially doesn't think transgender people exist, and does petty things like refusing to use people's preferred pronouns, or say put "minority" in quotes, has not/will not, in fact, do everything he can to ensure that no qualified minority candidate is overlooked.
Do you have a source for this. I (thought) to remember that he says he will gladly call a student by their preferred pronoun, if they so desired. Actually, I remember hearing it multiple times specifically on the Joe Rogan Show.
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:04 PM   #36
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Interesting. I wonder if Peterson would be willing to go to a poverty-stricken ghetto, LGBTQ2S+ community or First Nations territory and give them that same advice in person.

Unless he of course was just speaking about people with the privilege and ability to pull themselves up?
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:07 PM   #37
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This is a complete mischaracterization. It's saying that you should do all you can to put yourself in the best position to succeed before blaming the external world for your situation. It does not mean to not reach out for help if you need it. Hell if 'cleaning your room' metaphorically means sort yourself out, it would actually be encouraging you to seek out and get help to do just that rather to do nothing.
Right, but how does he reconcile this with his villainization of the woke left?

Does he have his house in order / doing what he can to be the change he wants to see? Or is he just another cog driving outrage culture?
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:09 PM   #38
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Interesting. I wonder if Peterson would be willing to go to a poverty-stricken ghetto, LGBTQ2S+ community or First Nations territory and give them that same advice in person.

Unless he of course was just speaking about people with the privilege and ability to pull themselves up?
Those communities are generally not Peterson's audience.

I do think for most of his audience, it is good advice.
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:11 PM   #39
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To play devil's advocate, there are some serious failings with affirmative action programs. Most notably, if not properly directed, they can actually make it harder on people who need the help the most.

For example, if you provide assistance based on race alone, it's going to be the most financially well off people that take advantage of those opportunities. You've now made it harder for the less well off visible minorities to compete, as they have the combined economic and racism challenges, and there are fewer spots for them to compete for and a perception that enough people of colour have already been accepted.

What people like Peterson do is to use small examples to make large connections and conclusions that don't exist.
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:13 PM   #40
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Those communities are generally not Peterson's audience.

I do think for most of his audience, it is good advice.
So he's just targeting that message to subscribers of the National Post? Or the demographic that represents those subscribers?
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