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Old 09-27-2020, 02:28 PM   #4261
Cecil Terwilliger
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In the real world or online? I work in a white-collar job in corporate Calgary. If I mentioned to colleagues that I was pro-choice, nobody would think anything of it. If I said I was pro-life, I'm certain it would surprise my colleagues, and seriously damage my social and maybe even professional status in their eyes.

In the companies I've worked at in the last 20 years, people are reluctant to even mention they go to church.
Fully agreed on abortion.

The church thing, no way. Unless you believe something private, like religion is, should constantly be a focus in public.

Unless it comes up as part of a conversation, like dietary restrictions, no one should be talking about their religious beliefs at work anyways. I’m glad religion no longer has a place in the office.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:29 PM   #4262
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I think it's positive if people are ashamed to mention they go to church. It should be a source of embarrassment to use your free time to voluntarily subject yourself and your loved ones to indoctrination of things any rational person knows to be untrue. It shows poor judgement and if you're going to go anyway, definitely best to keep it under your hat in the same way you should probably hide it if you're a scientologist, JW or member of any other religion.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:33 PM   #4263
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Originally Posted by New Era View Post
I think you're reading it wrong. In 2018, California does lose 691,145 (.017% of population) they have a gain of 772,335 from other states and out of country, giving them a net of +81,190. You have to look at the cross tab numbers to see the gains from state-to-state and out of country. Also, that 691,145 loss is based off a population of 39,114,889. Compare that to Texas where they lost 462,140 of 28,333,482 (.016%) and that is a similar loss. You could also look at Alaska where they lost 39,246 of 727,164 (.053%) or or Arizona where they lost 179,586 of 7,090,137 (.025) and see how the numbers compare. It's not a massive population loss any way you look at it, even on just loss stats and not looking at gains.
People have been leaving California for 20 years. I couldn't find any 2019 or YTD 2020 numbers, but when those come out, I bet they are pretty big.

Of the people that choose to leave (compared to forced to leave due to housing prices), they seem to be predominantly (overwhelming?) composed of conservatives.

Not sure how you got your conclusion out of the data, but I assume it is cleared up now.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:41 PM   #4264
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Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
I think it's positive if people are ashamed to mention they go to church. It should be a source of embarrassment to use your free time to voluntarily subject yourself and your loved ones to indoctrination of things any rational person knows to be untrue. It shows poor judgement and if you're going to go anyway, definitely best to keep it under your hat in the same way you should probably hide it if you're a scientologist, JW or member of any other religion.
I'm an atheist and have zero interest in going to church, but I can understand that there are good, rational reasons for people to do so that aren't about indoctrination. Community membership, emotional support, spiritual guidance and contribution to something bigger than yourself are all rational and positive reasons to do it. In fact, given that spiritual faith and membership in such communities tends to make people happier, there's a good argument that the most rational choice would be choosing to have faith and participate.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:47 PM   #4265
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Originally Posted by DownInFlames View Post
Florida and Texas are also top states for international immigrants but they're on the other end of the spectrum for state-to-state migration.


https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_..._net_migration
Ah, great link!

That's the data I was hoping to find. Your google-fu is strong.

California ranks last in net migration between states in 18 and 19. Ouch.
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Old 09-27-2020, 03:01 PM   #4266
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Originally Posted by Magnum PEI View Post
The charts are labeled State to State Migration. Yes California's population is growing due to international immigration and natural growth, but domestically it's losing population, quite a lot, while similar states (Arizona, Texas) are gaining. I thought this was obvious.

Look at the chart Huldrefolk posted, it shows a net loss of ~3 million people over 18 years.
You're being sucked in by a major non-issue by someone trying to forward an agenda. Look at the figures across the board, compare them appropriately, and then look at it holistically, and compare those again.

California lost 691,145 of its 39,114,889 population for a loss off 1.7%. That number looks large until you take into consideration the size of California's population and just what a small number that is. That is actually third best in the United States for emigration loss for states in the country. The top 10 being:

Michigan - 1.5
Texas - 1.6
California - 1.7
Ohio - 1.7
Wisconsin - 1.8
Maine - 1.8
Pennsylvania - 1.9
Minnesota - 2.0
Alabama - 2.0
Indiana - 2.0

The bottom 10 being:

DC - 8.7
Alaska - 5.3
Hawaii - 4.7
Wyoming - 4.5
North Dakota - 4.4
Puerto Rico - 4.2
Colorado - 3.6
New Mexico - 3.5
Delaware - 3.4
Kansas - 3.3

Now when you look at actual gains, the number that actually matters, you see a very different story than Huldrefolk is presenting. When you look at total gains, including immigration, which is the important number to include in the over all scope of things, the numbers actually look like this:

Top 10 for net population gain:

California - 293,573
Florida - 270,098
Texas - 213,439
New York - 143,697
Pennsylvania - 74,266
Massachusetts - 72,180
Illinois - 70,482
New Jersey - 68,324
Washington - 64,519
New Jersey - 63,668

Bottom 10 for population gain:

West Virginia - 1,757
Vermont - 2,385
Wyoming - 2,734
Delaware - 3,047
Maine - 3,324
Puerto Rico - 3,436
Montana - 3,360
South Dakota - 3,672
North Dakota - 4,077
Alaska - 5,740

If you wish to do it by a percentage of state population, then the top 10 are as follows.

Top 10 increase by percent of population

DC - 1.4
Florida - 1.3
Massachusetts - 1.1
Connecticut - 1.0
Hawaii - 0.9
Rhode Island - 0.9
Washington - 0.8
Maryland - 0.8
Alaska - 0.8
New Jersey - 0.8

California (#13) - 0.8

Bottom 10 increase by percent of population

West Virginia - 0.1
Puerto Rico - 0.1
Maine - 0.3
Mississippi - 0.3
Louisiana - 0.3
Kentucky - 0.3
Delaware - 0.3
Missouri - 0.3
Wisconsin - 0.3
Montana - 0.3

This is such a non-issue dreamed up by those with an agenda who don't understand population trends nor take the data into context when making their statements of fact. The reality is that California's population has continued to grow, period. And like the US population growth trend, it has slowed over the past few years.

Last edited by Lanny_McDonald; 09-27-2020 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Make the percentages easier to read.
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Old 09-27-2020, 03:35 PM   #4267
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Originally Posted by New Era View Post
This is such a non-issue dreamed up by those with an agenda who don't understand population trends nor take the data into context when making their statements of fact. The reality is that California's population has continued to grow, period.

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Trump will get his own country to be king over, the coastal elites will have their independent states, ....snip.... What would be interesting is the great migration as states and people pick sides.
Wait, is "the great migration" interesting, or is it a "non issue"?

I just want to clarify your position, as your statements are contradictory.

(I actually presented the data on state migration to bolster your point that ideological divides will turn into geographical divides as people migrate. I think this is actually quite significant.)
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Old 09-27-2020, 03:43 PM   #4268
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New York Times just dropped what looks like a massive expose on Trump's tax history:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ump-taxes.html

I haven't dug into it yet, but the un-shocking nutshell is that he's worth a lot less than claimed, but also may have misrepresented losses to claim tax refunds.
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:14 PM   #4269
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New York Times just dropped what looks like a massive expose on Trump's tax history:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ump-taxes.html

I haven't dug into it yet, but the un-shocking nutshell is that he's worth a lot less than claimed, but also may have misrepresented losses to claim tax refunds.
Lock him up!
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:19 PM   #4270
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The Rock comes out in support of Biden and Harris and Republicans lose their minds over a celebrity getting involved in politics while they are literally preparing to vote one back into office.
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:20 PM   #4271
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The church is much more than indoctrination. There's a great organization of charity and community.

For example the church opens free ESL classes to new immigrants, regardless of what religion they are.

In others news, Tom Ridge, who was Bush's first DHS Director and came up with the color code terror chart has come out and endorsed Biden. He also ripped Trump to shreds.

Wonder if Bush will fully endorse this week?
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:23 PM   #4272
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Originally Posted by Huldrefolk View Post
Wait, is "the great migration" interesting, or is it a "non issue"?

I just want to clarify your position, as your statements are contradictory.

(I actually presented the data on state migration to bolster your point that ideological divides will turn into geographical divides as people migrate. I think this is actually quite significant.)
#### you're dense. And I mean block of lead dense. Does context mean nothing to you? My comments were about "a great migration" that would result should the United States break up into independent countries, where the resulting entities would be on their own and people would be forced to make a decision which new entity they would prefer living in. That has NOTHING to do with the current inter-state emigration issue you've raised, which is a big nothing burger as the United States allows for portability of property and funds. In the suggested scenario, that portability would no longer exist, and people would have to choose which "country" they want to live in. They are massively different on so many levels it's hard to believe you some how made a connection between the two. My comment was based on a post-apocalyptic constitutional crisis resulting in the breakup of the United States. I mean, what in the ####???

Quote:
Originally Posted by octothorp View Post
New York Times just dropped what looks like a massive expose on Trump's tax history:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ump-taxes.html

I haven't dug into it yet, but the un-shocking nutshell is that he's worth a lot less than claimed, but also may have misrepresented losses to claim tax refunds.
Wonderful. The system is broken. I paid more in taxes this past pay period than Donald Trump did in 2016 or 2017. Anyone who suggests that the system is not designed to transfer wealth from the middle class and poor to the elites has their head firmly entrenched between their own butt cheeks. There is so much wrong with this country that maybe only a reboot will fix. Maybe a breakup is exactly what the country needs right now.
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:39 PM   #4273
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#### you're dense. And I mean block of lead dense. Does context mean nothing to you? My comments were about "a great migration" that would result should the United States break up into independent countries, where the resulting entities would be on their own and people would be forced to make a decision which new entity they would prefer living in. That has NOTHING to do with the current inter-state emigration issue you've raised, which is a big nothing burger as the United States allows for portability of property and funds. In the suggested scenario, that portability would no longer exist, and people would have to choose which "country" they want to live in. They are massively different on so many levels it's hard to believe you some how made a connection between the two. My comment was based on a post-apocalyptic constitutional crisis resulting in the breakup of the United States. I mean, what in the ####???
.
::shrug:: I just said the migration has already started. Then you tried to argue against data which clearly shows more people leave california for other states than enter california from other states. (BTW: it's okay to say you are wrong if the data shows it).
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:32 PM   #4274
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I'm an atheist and have zero interest in going to church, but I can understand that there are good, rational reasons for people to do so that aren't about indoctrination. Community membership, emotional support, spiritual guidance and contribution to something bigger than yourself are all rational and positive reasons to do it. In fact, given that spiritual faith and membership in such communities tends to make people happier, there's a good argument that the most rational choice would be choosing to have faith and participate.
You can have a very rich life filled with friends, family, community, and contribution while guided by a strong moral compass without also believing in fairytales and choosing baloney over rationality.

At the very least, I am strongly opposed to indoctrinating children with BS and potentially damaging beliefs, traditions and rituals (eg circumcisions, boys alone with priests, etc). If people want to join areligious clubs and teams, there are plenty out there. Adding in teachings from a book or two that have been outdated for a good couple thousand years is poor parenting imo.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:39 PM   #4275
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How does the US President get up in front of the cameras and repeat as truth a silly story that his opponent is on drugs and when pressed for a source says "a lot of people, a lot of people, check the internet."?

Unbelievable. Too bad the Dems don't have a candidate who could finally and powerfully call out Trump in the debates on the total bulls**t that has come out of his mouth over the last four years.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:40 PM   #4276
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Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
I think it's positive if people are ashamed to mention they go to church. It should be a source of embarrassment to use your free time to voluntarily subject yourself and your loved ones to indoctrination of things any rational person knows to be untrue. It shows poor judgement and if you're going to go anyway, definitely best to keep it under your hat in the same way you should probably hide it if you're a scientologist, JW or member of any other religion.
I know a lot of people that attend church just for the social aspect of it, especially old people.

Personally, I used to like going for the post-mass soccer game. I am not religious though, so the mass part was boring. I actually like décor and smells of old wood, leather and incense as well.

It's also interesting for people watching.
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:10 PM   #4277
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I bet you the Trump tax leak is from the right. Dems and media should ignore it
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:21 PM   #4278
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Ah, great link!

That's the data I was hoping to find. Your google-fu is strong.

California ranks last in net migration between states in 18 and 19. Ouch.
Why are people fleeing California en mass?
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:29 PM   #4279
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california lost 691,145 of its 39,114,889 population for a loss off .017%.
1.7%
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:30 PM   #4280
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Interesting fact that is more random than a sign of Trump losing, but never in American history have 4 straight presidents been re-elected to serve a full 8 years. Prior to Clinton -> Bush -> Obama, the only other time 3 consecutive have served 8 years was Jefferson -> Madison -> Monroe.
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