American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Uh no, we're talking about what Biden promised and what Americans as a whole want if you go by polling. $15/h minimum wage is insanely popular with voters across both parties and independents. As are $2000 stimulus cheques, both of which were promised by this administration.

No, they were promised by the candidate. Know the difference.

[GGG]

Earlier in the thread or maybe a previous one someone posted an excellent article on the affect of raising minimum wage relative to median income and the current general consensus around economists. There are negative affects when raising minimum wage to a point greater than x% and positive affects up until that point.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by New Era

No, they were promised by the candidate. Know the difference.

You going full Corsi on the semantics here? To the average voter, Biden is the administration and it looks like a broken promise to the voters as it stands.

[FlamesAddiction]

Raising minimum wage right now is just a bad idea. With so many small businesses barely getting by, it would kill a lot of them. It would also force many to avoid it by hiring illegals or paying people under the table. If that happens on a large enough scale, you get Greece. For bigger businesses, it would push many over the edge to the point they see more long term benefit in switching to automation. Not to mention the chain reaction it has on all salaries and inflation.

Promising to substantially raise minimum wage was a bad promise to make and if he did it, I can guarantee you that the Republicans would win in a landslide next time. It was low hanging fruit to buy votes.

I get that they need to help people who live in poverty, but 90% of the people who make minimum wage do not live in poverty when you look at their situations (being youths or supplemented by a higher income partner), and those few extra bucks are not enough to lift people who really need it. Ontario raised it substantially a few years ago and it did absolutely nothing to help poverty.

The real issue is the system itself. Letting supply and demand dictate prices for most things makes stuff too expensive, including many things that are necessities, or have become necessary to compete in life. Some #### does not need to be as expensive as it is and there needs to be a way to regulate it better so people who make minimum wage can live. Things like utilities, food, education/training, rent, transportation, and even cell phones and computers (try keeping a job or going to school without one), need to be affordable for everyone. Bring those prices down, but don't punish every small business that is already barely getting by. People would be surprised how many small business owners actually make less than their minimum wage employees and how many actually have to use the food bank. Poverty isn't always easily noticed.


Sorry, a little OT here, but minimum wage hikes do not solve anything long term and Biden should not have promised it, but he would be even stupider to follow through with the nation-wide hike he promised. Minimum wage hikes are in fact counter to leftist ideals when you think about it. You know by giving the poor more money, the rich and powerful are just going to find a way to make it come to them eventually anyway if there is no cost control.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Here's a good article detailing the changing consensus among economists over the minimum wage.

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/wh...is-pretty-safe

Here is the article that was previously posted. An increase to the minimum wage will have positive affects throughout the US. $15 may be a little too high in some rural areas.

So, Dube’s literature review above suggests that in general, minimum wages aren’t harmful if they’re below about 60% of the median wage. The median weekly earnings of U.S. workers currently stands at around $994, so assuming a 40-hour workweek that’s about $24.85/hour. 60% of that is about $14.91, meaning that $15 is right around the maximum safe level. But because the economy will recover from COVID-19 and wages will rise, and because Biden’s $15 minimum wage would undoubtedly be phased in over time, $15 will probably be under the national “safe” level by the time the law goes into effect. And thanks to inflation, it will be further and further below the “safe” level every year (we really should index minimum wage to inflation, but that’s another story).

But that’s at the national level. What about at the local level? In big cities where wages (and living costs) are naturally higher, $15 won’t be any problem at all. But in small towns in Kansas, where wages (and living costs) are naturally a lot lower, a federally mandated $15 wage could be a big problem.

Fortunately, there’s reason to think that small towns won’t be so screwed by a too-high minimum wage. The reason is that these small towns also tend to have fewer employers, and therefore more monopsony power. And as we saw above, more monopsony power means that minimum wage is less dangerous, and can even raise employment sometimes.

[Sluggo]

From Wikipedia: spoiler for size

Spoiler!

Something needs to be done about this or Musk and Bezos will be the next Rockefeller and Vanderbilt. The easy political move is to raise the minimum since lowering the top will have to go against bought politicians (most in GOP and some in the Dems).

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GGG

$15 may be a little too high in some rural areas.

That's just it, the cost of living varies dramatically based on where in the US you live. Therefore a nation-wide minimum wage makes little sense.

Providing some form of UBI is a much better solution than implementing/raising minimum wage, IMO.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

If minimum wage worked in 1975 why wouldn't the equivalent wage work now?

You have to be careful applying lessons learned in an economic climate that is almost 50 years removed. It's for the same reasons that economic decisions applied in 1925 wouldn't necessarily apply to 1975, or why economic decisions applied in 1875 wouldn't apply to 1925.

The world is a much different place nowadays. The economy in 1975 was much more dependent on manual or low-skilled labour, therefore people in that economic demographic had a lot more power. The labour demand in 1975 was enormous even if they weren't jobs people wanted (Canada and the U.S. increased immigration to fill the void).

In Ontario, they didn't see unemployment rise as some predicted when minimum wage increased, but they did see a change over. Small businesses and entrepreneurs were pushed aside and larger corporations took over the commercial spaces. Mom and pop businesses closed down, Starbuck's, Dollar Stores, and Domino's moved in. The employment rate stayed more or less the same, but so did the poverty rate as labour cost increases were passed down to the consumers. It really did nothing except make the economic climate less friendly to small businesses where small changes in margins have a huge effect.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

That's just it, the cost of living varies dramatically based on where in the US you live. Therefore a nation-wide minimum wage makes little sense.

Providing some form of UBI is a much better solution than implementing/raising minimum wage, IMO.

UBI provides no increase in economic mobility to the people a minimum wage increase is intended to help.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Sluggo

From Wikipedia: spoiler for size

Spoiler!

Something needs to be done about this or Musk and Bezos will be the next Rockefeller and Vanderbilt.

Guillotine?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Guillotine?

If only there was another less drastic mechanism available to combat this. Is there anything that has worked in the past that might possibly help now?

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

If only there was another less drastic mechanism available to combat this.

You mean like... lethal injection?

[Sluggo]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

You mean like... lethal injection?

Better be icing

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

UBI provides no increase in economic mobility to the people a minimum wage increase is intended to help.

It puts money into their pockets, so it pretty much definitionally does increase their economic mobility.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

It puts money into their pockets, so it pretty much definitionally does increase their economic mobility.

If you move everyone’s starting line up by the same amount it doesn’t get you any further ahead in the long run.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

You mean like... lethal injection?

Yes. I thought it’d be pretty clear to everyone that that’s what I meant. I mean what else could a poster with my history possibly be referencing?

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

If you move everyone’s starting line up by the same amount it doesn’t get you any further ahead in the long run.

Most UBI schemes claw back the UBI payment through tax from those that make enough money.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You going full Corsi on the semantics here? To the average voter, Biden is the administration and it looks like a broken promise to the voters as it stands.

No semantics. Just reality. What a candidate says is hard to turn into policy because of how politics works. You can't take what a candidate says as whole cloth because they do have the authority or mandate to implement such actions. If you don't understand that you're just another in a long line or idiots who don't have a clue about politics or governance. The administration is not the administration until the administration is clearly defined and confirmed. They are not able to implement policy until they have the job. As far as sending goes, that is not the President's purview, that is congress' responsibility. The reality is that while Biden may want to do certain things he is held hostage by congress. But I suspect you know this are just intentionally being obtuse.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

You mean like... lethal injection?

How come they only do crucifixions during sweeps?

[AltaGuy]

In some quarters, guillotine, lethal injection and taxes are all basically the same.