[News] Norris Finalists: Chara, Keith, Weber

[FireGilbert]

It's unfortunate Gio didn't get a nomination. I think it's a combination of the time missed to injury and a lot of the writers not watching him and voting for more well known players.

Also, the debate about the Norris going to offensive or defensive dmen has been going on for years. The solution is to add another trophy for the defenseman with the most points. How about the Bobby Orr trophy? Then the Norris would be like the Selke and go to the top defensive defenseman.

[Ashasx]

I'm not the only one who thinks Keith shouldn't have been a nominee.

Some more simple statistics:

Keith had:

3 ES goals (84th in the league amongst defencemen)
36 hits (201st in the league amongst defencemen)
89 blocked shots (118th amongst defencemen)
35 secondary assists (1st amongst defencemen)

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not the only one who thinks Keith shouldn't have been a nominee.

And?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

And?

Guess I should have quoted the post mocking my opinion.

[GoJetsGo]

You're the only one who said that here. That's all that really matters at it pertains to this discussion.

You also added the gems that those voting "don't know what the Norris Trophy is" and that Keith "shouldn't even have been nominated".

Having a preference toward one of the other deserving candidates is fine, but suggesting one of the best defensman in the league, a former Norris winner, a two time cup winner and a two time gold medal winner (all during which he was a team leader in logging minutes) - shouldn't even have been nominated - is weak. Keith might not be a shutdown type of defender, but his hockey sense, quick decisions and being a catalyst in transitioning the puck out of his own end make him an excellent defensemen. Especially when that's combined with being one of the best offensive d-men in the league.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

You're the only one who said that here. That's all that really matters at it pertains to this discussion.

You also added the gems that those voting "don't know what the Norris Trophy is" and that Keith "shouldn't even have been nominated".

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=426858

The PHWA is a joke. They don't know what things mean. The average collection of CP posters have more hockey knowledge than this group of "experts".

With that said, I have no idea how my by belief here has anything to do with Keith being worthy of the Norris Trophy.

So next time, read my posts instead of my username. I know it's hard for some here to do.

Having a preference toward one of the other deserving candidates is fine, but suggesting one of the best defensman in the league, a former Norris winner, a two time cup winner and a two time gold medal winner (all during which he was a team leader in logging minutes) - shouldn't even have been nominated - is weak. Keith might not be a shutdown type of defender, but his hockey sense, quick decisions and being a catalyst in transitioning the puck out of his own end make him an excellent defensemen. Especially when that's combined with being one of the best offensive d-men in the league.

I don't know what a gold medals and Stanley Cups have to do with an individual award. The Blackhawks are the best team in the league and will probably win the Cup again this year. Keith is part of that, yes, but that doesn't make him a top 3 defenceman in the league. It's a poor argument. It's not even an argument at all.

Here's the NHL's description of the Norris Trophy:

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defenseman who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.

I have posted numerous stats to defend my opinion that Keith is average defensively. He is an elite offensive defencemen, but he fails to meet the other part of that criteria.

The only argument you've provided amounts to "he just is", or "watch the game" (which I do).

So tell me again (this time without the condescension) why I'm wrong and deserve to be mocked just because you disagree with my opinion. I know some people find it difficult to make an argument without calling others names.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=426858
So next time, read my posts instead of my username. I know it's hard for some here to do.

Laughable. I directly quoted the parts of what you said that I disagreed with. It has nothing to do with your username, other than the fact you're always whining about something. Your manufactured outrage about Keith being nominated is just another oddity to add to your list.

What do Keith's cups, gold medals and previous Norris Trophy have to do with the Norris trophy this year? Well his previous Norris trophy is obvious, and as I said (if you'd care to read) he was a leader in logging minutes for all of those distinctions which is huge. You suggesting it doesn't speak to his defensive pedigree is beyond weak.

I said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not the fact you think someone is more deserving... it's that you said "He doesn't even deserve to be nominated". That's just drivel. He had one of his best seasons to date, and you not giving credit to his traits that DO very much constitute superior defense (positioning, active stick, quick decisions, and above all else, his transition game getting the puck out of his own end) is a real head-scratcher. Your suggestion that he didn't even deserve to be nominated is just as ignorant as your assertion your opinion counts more than that of the experts who determine this award.

[Stay Golden]

Chara
Keith
Weber

Would be my vote but I think Keith will win it all 3 of these guys are worthy of the award. I think the voting will be extremely close.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Laughable. I directly quoted the parts of what you said that I disagreed with. It has nothing to do with your username, other than the fact you're always whining about something. Your manufactured outrage about Keith being nominated is just another oddity to add to your list.

What do Keith's cups, gold medals and previous Norris Trophy have to do with the Norris trophy this year? Well his previous Norris trophy is obvious, and as I said (if you'd care to read) he was a leader in logging minutes for all of those distinctions which is huge. You suggesting it doesn't speak to his defensive pedigree is beyond weak.

I said it already, but I'll say it again. It's not the fact you think someone is more deserving... it's that you said "He doesn't even deserve to be nominated". That's just drivel. He had one of his best seasons to date, and you not giving credit to his traits that DO very much constitute superior defense (positioning, active stick, quick decisions, and above all else, his transition game getting the puck out of his own end) is a real head-scratcher. Your suggestion that he didn't even deserve to be nominated is just as ignorant as your assertion your opinion counts more than that of the experts who determine this award.

How is it outrage? I simply said he doesn't deserve to be nominated.

Disagree with my opinion all you want, but you cross the line when you single me out and mock me.

You say it's ignorant for me to believe what I do, yet provide no basis behind such an argument besides describing the way he plays.

But yeah, good job creating your third post in a row without any sort of fundamental justification. I'm sure you'll get a dozen thanks.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

How is it outrage? I simply said he doesn't deserve to be nominated.

Disagree with my opinion all you want, but you cross the line when you single me out and mock me.

You say it's ignorant for me to believe what I do, yet provide no basis behind such an argument besides describing the way he plays.

But yeah, good job creating your third post in a row without any sort of fundamental justification. I'm sure you'll get a dozen thanks.

You're the one who suggested the people who choose the award "don't know what it is" and that your opinion is more valid. If that isn't an invitation to have your opinion mocked, I don't know what is. It's my opinion that your opinion is out to lunch, and I chose the parts of it I took issue with and explained why. If you think some selected advance stats somehow prove that one of the head-and-shoulders-above-the rest best defeneman in the league isn't even worthy of a nomination... all the more power to you.

Chara and or Webber could very well win this year and they'd be great and deserving choices. But so is Keith. To suggest he's not right up there with those guys is crazy talk. His nomination was well deserved, and incidentally came less than 24 hours after he just about single handedly won a game seven in the first round of the playoffs (four point night: 1G, 3A +3, 25 mins played). The guy is one of the very best d-men in the league and has been for years now.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not the only one who thinks Keith shouldn't have been a nominee.

Some more simple statistics:

Keith had:

3 ES goals (84th in the league amongst defencemen)
36 hits (201st in the league amongst defencemen)
89 blocked shots (118th amongst defencemen)
35 secondary assists (1st amongst defencemen)

Some MORE simple statistics:

Percentage of Points 5 on 5:
Keith - 0.57
Weber - 0.45
Chara - 0.50

Percentage of Goals 5 on 5:
Keith - 0.50
Weber - 0.35
Chara - 0.41

First Assists per game 5 on 5:
Keith - 0.509 (2nd in the league)
Weber - 0.229 (51st in the league)
Chara - 0.347 (24th in the league)

Even Strength IPP (percentage of team goals player involved in):
Keith - 45.5
Weber - 37.9
Chara - 36.4

Do you like "advanced stats"?
Fenwick ES:
Keith - 188
Weber - 191
Chara - 166

Corsi ES:
Keith - 281
Weber - 254
Chara - 255

And finally, while Keith's Hits are low and his Blocked Shots are average, it's likely because his partner fills that role more readily than he does. Generally top defensive pairs work together to balance coverage. One player being more aggressive with the body, and the other more talented with the puck. Let's take a look at the common pairings (though Hamilton was only really paired with Chara after Seidenberg got injured, so those numbers might be less legit):

Hits:
Keith/Seabrook - 207
Weber/Josi - 201
Chara/Hamilton - 236

Blocked Shots:
Keith/Seabrook - 239
Weber/Josi - 323
Chara/Hamilton - 157


So as you can see, Keith was a better player offensively than either of the other two nominees, didn't have to rely on special teams to accomplish his numbers as much as the other two, and is most certainly in the same ballpark as both of them defensively.

Blah blah blah the point is you haven't got much of a clue broheim. You're as out to lunch on this as you are on most things. I didn't even need to "look at the username!" to figure that out, but go ahead and ignore any relevant information and play the victim card because everyone is ganging up on you and singling you out and not letting you have an opinion... or whatever it is this week.

[Ashasx]

Black and white, as per usual.

[strombad]

Well to your credit, I definitely didn't call that use of the victim card.

Touché.

[Hockey_Ninja]

[formulate]

Even if Keith were just average defensively (though he's 30th out of 121 d-men with 1000 minutes played in unblocked shot attempts allowed per 60 minutes of ice time), he's clearly elite offensively and elite in transition, and plays top minutes on a great team. Hard to argue with him (or any of the 3) being nominated. Add in Doughty and Suter (and Gio this year) and there are probably your top 5 in the league over the last few years.

ADD: In terms of hits and blocked shots:

Leading the way in hits are defensive stalwarts Cody Franson, Luke Schenn, Mark Stuart and Ben Lovejoy.
Your blocked shot juggernauts are Andrew MacDonald, Chris Butler and Kris Russell.

While these stats aren't necessarily a negative, it should be noted that making a hit or blocking a shot requires you don't have the puck. This is something that Duncan Keith doesn't do a lot of.
As well, I'll take a guy who is more likely to take the puck away by using body positioning and a good stick, rather than a guy who is less likely to get the puck by making a body check.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Black and white, as per usual.

Saying that all the voters don't know what the Norris Trophy is because you don't agree with them and using 4 superficial stats to back up your point that Keith shouldn't even be nominated sounds pretty black and white thinking to me.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Saying that all the voters don't know what the Norris Trophy is because you don't agree with them and using 4 superficial stats to back up your point that Keith shouldn't even be nominated sounds pretty black and white thinking to me.

I didn't just use 4 "superficial stats".

I applaud strombad for actually taking the time to find something to defend his claim.

But then he ends his post with "you're wrong, as usual".

It's not black and white. Keith doesn't even face the toughest competition amongst defencemen on his team. He's actually behind Hjalmarsson and Oduya, even in the playoffs right now.

He faces easy zone starts (3rd on his team), comparable to Denis Wideman's ratio.

If we're talking about the Norris Trophy for the best all-around defenceman, sorry, but I don't think a guy who doesn't even face the competition or zone starts on his team is worthy of being voted top 3.

But it's not black and white. strombad did well being the first person to actually do some research before criticizing what I said (although his combined pairing stats are nonsense, especially when you consider the quality of the other defenceman [Seabrook vs Josi & Hamilton], and he knows that).

Players like Weber and Giordano did it all this season. They hit, they blocked shots, and they scored. Keith didn't do those first two because the other defencemen balances it out? That's an argument against Keith, not for. It's an individual award.

This is not an argument anyone can win, so let's stop acting like it.

[codynw]

Sven Baertschi for 2014 Norris Trophy.

[dustygoon]

Just from watching, I would have thought Doughty would be on the list over Weber. He could be a 60 point guy at will but takes the defensive side seriously.

[Jason14h]

Players like Weber and Giordano did it all this season. They hit, they blocked shots, and they scored. Keith didn't do those first two because the other defencemen balances it out? That's an argument against Keith, not for. It's an individual award.

Weber was nominated. Gio was hurt. I personally don't think a D who played 75% of the games can be one of the 3 best defencemen for THE SEASON.

You don't help the team on the IR.