[News] Norris Finalists: Chara, Keith, Weber

[davidbjordan]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I like the "one of these things is not like the others" comment... yeah, Weber isn't, note the big red circle there. I mean Keith is too; it's actually hilarious how people were all over Subban for winning despite not being very good defensively when Keith is demonstrably worse at defense (on this scale of elite NHL defensemen anyway). But I don't even get how Weber is nominated this year. Such a reputation-based thing.

Article from during the olympics comparing the Canadian D-men to each other is pretty on point here... http://canucksarmy.com/2014/2/17/the...ly-exaggerated

I find it hillarious how you are using an article that references team possession stats to describe how good a player is. It is clear that weber is an elite defenceman and deserves to be nominated this year.

The question becomes, do keith's offensive stats hold up against the others, for me, both chara and weber are stronger defensively.

I find it similar to when suter signed with minnesota and people were talking about how he was the better of the pair and weber will be exposed without him. I think he had a better year, on a worse team.

[19Yzerman19]

^What on Earth are you talking about? That article references raw fenwick for each player and player usage charts, not "team possession stats". Were you confused by "team average"? That just compares a player like, say, Alex Pietrangelo to everyone else on the Blues.

There is a difference between "elite defenseman" and "had an MVP-nomination worthy season". Weber is the former, he didn't have the latter.

Originally Posted by formulate

Even taking that into account, Keith is still getting 'easier' assignments compared to Weber, Chara, Giordano etc. But the rate at which he's translating that into positive possession and offense, which maintaining very good work in his own zone is outstanding.

I just seriously question this. Keith is 2nd last on the team in the amount of shots fired at the Hawks net when he's on the ice, to Sheldon Brookbank. This despite the zone start numbers in the graph up there. He's getting cushy minutes and still somehow giving up more offense to the other team than everyone else. On the PK, he's way, way below both team and NHL average in preventing shot attempts over the past 3 years. How is it he's got this good reputation for defense? I assume it's basically because the Hawks are, as a team, solid defensively.

I mean, don't get me wrong, his offensive talent more than balances it out, but let's give him credit for what he's outstanding at without muddying the waters with myths about his defensive prowess how 'bout.

[davidbjordan]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

There is a difference between "elite defenseman" and "had an MVP-nomination worthy season". Weber is the former, he didn't have the latter.

I believe you have to be on a good team to even get the latter so unfortunately no he won't get that.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by davidbjordan

I believe you have to be on a good team to even get the latter so unfortunately no he won't get that.

Not necessarily; I mean Subban and Karlsson were on "just pretty good" teams the past couple of seasons and won it. Meanwhile, Doughty's been the best defenseman on a really good defensive team for a few years now and hasn't had a sniff. Suter was nominated and really should have won last year, imo, but the Wild missed the playoffs.

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

While I agree, I think Weber is just a beast in his own right. Both Keith and Chara have an incredible supporting cast which makes point production a little easier. 23 goals and 33 assists was very impressive.

Same reason as you. It is Weber for me. No Seabrook or scoring forwards to rely on. Same goes for Chara who plays with Boychuk and other D plus forwards who can score and help the team win.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The three Norris candidates along with my choice (Giordano). One of these things is not like the others...

Listening to TSN radio in Montreal this afternoon. Whoever the host is really pumping Giordano as should have been nominated over Keith.

Seems obvious that the best defensman should face best competition, but both last two winners(Subban and Karlsson didn't, so...

[davidbjordan]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Not necessarily; I mean Subban and Karlsson were on "just pretty good" teams the past couple of seasons and won it. Meanwhile, Doughty's been the best defenseman on a really good defensive team for a few years now and hasn't had a sniff. Suter was nominated and really should have won last year, imo, but the Wild missed the playoffs.

was referring to the MVP comment, i agree with doughty though, incredible D man just doesn't put up the fantasy numbers.

Which is strange because while sutter seems to be a defensive first coach, he no doubt gives doughty free range to pick his opportunities

[19Yzerman19]

I don't think you have to necessarily face the best competition. If I have a guy who's really good all-around, but happen to also have a guy who's even better purely defensively, strategy would dicatate that the latter guy would face the best competition and the better all-around guy would get easier minutes as a result. Really depends on your team makeup.

[Jagermeister]

I'm really happy how Gio's season turned out this year. I wasnt sure he was going to be the best fit as captain, but he really proved he does deserve it.

On top of that, at the beginning of the season if you told me that Giordano would have a similar season to the likes of Keith, Weber and Chara, almost get invited to play for team Canada and be in the talks for a Norris nomination I would have called you crazy. He had a tremendous bounce back year and hopefully he can continue where he left off this year, next season.

It sucks that he didn't get a nomination, I really think he should have. However, playing like he has and being a leader for our young guys will really help this team in the long run.

[Erick Estrada]

I'm not too sad Gio didn't get a nomination. It would have been great to see him recognized for a solid season but the Flames are only a year into a tough rebuild and I wouldn't want him to carry the additional burden of expectations as things could be a little more difficult next season. As long as he continues to be a great leader for the organization and give his all on the ice Flames fans should be very happy and who really cares about what the Eastern media really thinks anyway as they are in bed when 1/3 of the games are played.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Listening to TSN radio in Montreal this afternoon. Whoever the host is really pumping Giordano as should have been nominated over Keith.

Seems obvious that the best defensman should face best competition, but both last two winners(Subban and Karlsson didn't, so...

If it's James Mirtle, I wouldn't be surprised. IIRC, he voted Giordano as his top pick.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Massonite

NHL has announced the 3 finalists for the Norris Trophy

Zdeno Chara, Duncan Keith and Mark Giordano.

fyp.

[puckluck2]

Weber has this in the bag. He's good defensively and great offensively. Kind of thought Suter would also have got a nomination but his lack of offence likely hurt him.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Weber has this in the bag. He's good defensively and great offensively. Kind of thought Suter would also have got a nomination but his lack of offence likely hurt him.

He certainly is, but this hasn't been one of his most spectacular years.

Based on the way the votes have gone lately, I think Weber stands the lowest chance of actually winning.

[Ashasx]

Weber probably had the best individual season of his career.

If his team had the same offence as the Hawks, he'd probably have hit 70 points.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by strombad

He certainly is, but this hasn't been one of his most spectacular years.

Based on the way the votes have gone lately, I think Weber stands the lowest chance of actually winning.

Defensively he's always been overrated but this has been his best offensive season in his career.

If it was my choice, Suter would get nominated and win. They do look at offence a bit too much but that's the way it has always been, right or wrong.

[strombad]

Weber was great offensively in comparison to previous outings, but he's had numerous other seasons where he was certainly more dominant all over the ice than this season.

That said, still wouldn't be a bad choice if that's how it shook down. All 3 of the guys nominated are fittingly elite level defencemen.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by strombad

Weber was great offensively in comparison to previous outings, but he's had numerous other seasons where he was certainly more dominant all over the ice than this season.

That said, still wouldn't be a bad choice if that's how it shook down. All 3 of the guys nominated are fittingly elite level defencemen.

Weber was lights out on the PP this season no doubt about that but more is looked at than just that which is why guys like Keith Yandle aren't talked about as top overall defensemen in the league. You can make a good case that Giordano was much more impressive than Webber 5 on 5 on a worse team to boot.

[$ven27]

Weber should win it.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by formulate

Even taking that into account, Keith is still getting 'easier' assignments compared to Weber, Chara, Giordano etc. But the rate at which he's translating that into positive possession and offense, which maintaining very good work in his own zone is outstanding.

This is underlined by the stalwart defense we saw Team Canada play in the last Olympics. While most people think of Webber hammering guys against the end boards or Chara dominating in front of his own net (which make them great d-men no doubt), there is just as much merit (if not moreso) in making quick smart decisions removing the puck from your own zone. Those smart quick outlets make Keith a VERY good defensive defensemen and his offensive prowess to go with that makes him one of the very best in the league. He did it all season long if you watched the Hawks, and is one of the best in the league at thinking the game and creating transition from his own end to the other.

The last two playoff games were great examples of this if you want to look at in a microcosm. Insane read transitioning the puck to Towes on the breakawy in the second last game's OT period for the game winner. Four points in the final game. The guy is one of the very best in the game.

Ashasx suggesting he shouldn't even have been nominated is a joke. But not completely unsurprising.