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Old 01-21-2020, 10:08 PM   #41
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Putting your hockey career at risk just to escape being in the oilers organization to another level
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Old 01-21-2020, 10:15 PM   #42
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I’m with moneyhands on this one. Draft picks would be the absolute best way to punish a team. Giving teams the ability to terminate contracts is like giving them a hall pass. Managerment are very smart people. They would find a way to exploit this.

Draft picks taken could actually put a real dent in a franchise.
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Old 01-21-2020, 10:35 PM   #43
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Twitter poll by Edmonton Sportscaster

https://twitter.com/user/status/1219723453386973185

It would be very awkward should the Oilers recall this player in an injury situation.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:02 PM   #44
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Said Edmonton sportscaster should know Manning is under contract in the NHL not the NFL.

Manning’s cap hit should double.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:08 PM   #45
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I was going to say, on MLK day, classy.
The NHL and aspiring high draft picks everywhere have a dream, that one day Oilers players will be part of an organization that does not destroy the content of player character and whose players do not deserve to be judged harshly on the basis of the colour of their trashy jerseys.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:28 PM   #46
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Yup. Aside from the fact that it is literally impossible to argue this puts Manning in material breach of his contract, the NHL and its minor leagues already have a history of relatively minor fines and suspensions for slurs. The NHL doesn't work on precedents, but the legal system sure does.

Sorry, Oiling, but "material breach" has a meaning. And that meaning isn't "I don't like what he did."
That's not true. The NHL contracts have morality clauses, like most professional sports do. Now they are often subjective, but that wouldn't stop the Oilers from terminating the contract, what it would likely do is trigger the same issues that arose from the Kings terminating Richards contract. The league getting involved to force a settlement or await arbitration (and potentially lawsuits after where, like you said the precedent would play a role).

"(e) to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and to refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interest of the Club, the League or professional hockey generally."

I think we can all agree that racist remarks would fail to satisfy clause (e) here, making it a breach of contract. I'm not saying the ultimate outcome would be something or another, I'm saying the Oilers (like the Kings) can cite the morality clauses in the contract, say you broke them, and they are terminating the contract. Then the player can go and get the NHLPA and his lawyers involved. I also agree that the Oilers wouldn't do this anyways.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:36 PM   #47
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I'd also point out players like Dotchin had their contracts terminated for showing up fat, another material breach cited by similar language.

In Dotchin case his contracted was terminated, a grievance was filed, it was set to go to arbitration and they settled...Just like Richards.
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Old 01-22-2020, 12:43 AM   #48
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Don't the Oilers have to bring him up? Isn't he on a conditioning assignment? People will ignore that, if true, and call the Oilers out for bringing him back up.
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Old 01-22-2020, 02:40 AM   #49
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Don't the Oilers have to bring him up? Isn't he on a conditioning assignment? People will ignore that, if true, and call the Oilers out for bringing him back up.
Matt Benning is on a conditioning assignment.

Manning is just there because he sucks.

Looking at the Ontario Reign roster it isn't hard to figure out who the racial slur was directed at.

I personally would like to see the Oilers try to void the contract. Even if its not possible I'd like to see the Oilers tell the guy to sit at home and collect his salary rather than be around the team.
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Old 01-22-2020, 08:41 AM   #50
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That's not true. The NHL contracts have morality clauses, like most professional sports do. Now they are often subjective, but that wouldn't stop the Oilers from terminating the contract, what it would likely do is trigger the same issues that arose from the Kings terminating Richards contract. The league getting involved to force a settlement or await arbitration (and potentially lawsuits after where, like you said the precedent would play a role).

"(e) to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and to refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interest of the Club, the League or professional hockey generally."

I think we can all agree that racist remarks would fail to satisfy clause (e) here, making it a breach of contract. I'm not saying the ultimate outcome would be something or another, I'm saying the Oilers (like the Kings) can cite the morality clauses in the contract, say you broke them, and they are terminating the contract. Then the player can go and get the NHLPA and his lawyers involved. I also agree that the Oilers wouldn't do this anyways.
No, we can't agree on that because the NHL itself has had a number of incidents where a racial slur did not result in anything close to a team attempting to terminate the contract. And it won't happen here either because the Oilers don't have a cause to justify it. The NHL and its affiliates already have established procedures for dealing these incidents, and they don't include contract termination. If the Oilers tried, whichever union he's represented by would file a grievance and win it easily. It would be a complete waste of time and finances.

You simply do not understand what breach of contract means, material or otherwise. Using the logic you are trying to torture, literally every player who has been subjected to supplemental discipline for any reason has breached their contracts under that same clause. The punishment, of course, is not contract termination but fines and suspensions. Same as Manning suffered here.
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Old 01-22-2020, 10:47 AM   #51
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No, we can't agree on that because the NHL itself has had a number of incidents where a racial slur did not result in anything close to a team attempting to terminate the contract.
We've also had drug issues, criminal charges and players out of shape that have not resulted in termination of a contract. And yet players have had their contracts terminated for those as well. It's up to the team to decide if the action warrants the contract to be terminated. And it's up to the player to decide if he would want to fight it. Pretty much just like any contract.

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You simply do not understand what breach of contract means, material or otherwise. Using the logic you are trying to torture, literally every player who has been subjected to supplemental discipline for any reason has breached their contracts under that same clause. The punishment, of course, is not contract termination but fines and suspensions. Same as Manning suffered here.
You're getting confused between the process and the results. The Oilers can terminate the contract. That does not mean the outcome wouldn't result in them losing a lawsuit, the league forcing them to go to arbitration, the league ruling against them on cap-space, etc. So like I said, I don't see why the Oilers would go that route unless Manning was extremely problematic.

Richards opened it up, to the chagrin of a lot of league officials. Of course the eventual settlement was not a fullout termination. But he was just alleged to have been charged at the time the contract was terminated. You can't point to criminal charges, because the same team had Voynov. You can't point to drugs, because the same team had Stoll. There isn't consistency like you are saying.
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Old 01-22-2020, 10:56 AM   #52
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How cute. Brandon Manning trying to be Preston Manning.
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:17 AM   #53
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I hate it, and hope he doesn’t play another game.
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Old 01-22-2020, 12:02 PM   #54
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If this was cause for contract termination, then they should make homophobic and misogynist slurs cause for contract termination, including the one recently used by Kassian against Tkachuk.

It won't happen as it would mean a large number of players in both the AHL and NHL would suddenly qualify to have their contracts terminated.
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Old 01-22-2020, 12:43 PM   #55
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while being a racist piece of #### just makes you a racist piece of ####.
The problem is we are using that label "racist" way to liberally. I have no idea what he said, or do I really care - the problem is, all this "trash talking" that's going on in the game, and that we (may) consider good... obviously there are many lines that people are getting close to and dare I say - passing. A line that wasn't passed today, could be considered passed in the future... and can even be judged in the future... so I don't judge others. Also.... if someone calls me a name during a game, I suck it up, I don't report it to the officials (of any sort).

If I think about what I said to other players when I was younger.... those same comments today would be consider improper and I have no bad feelings one way or another about any of those groups that may be offended (today)... just and example.... "you play like a girl".... and I respect women in all aspects of my life... back then and today. Just like if a guy said something about my belief, background, racial makeup, etc. - BIG DEAL.... I'm a big boy (is that bad to say) and I just choose NOT to be a VICTIM and let that just slide off my back.... I'd even have a drink with the individual after the game... and have.

So.... I have no idea if Manning just said something in the heat of the moment and his trash talking just went too far, and he really doesn't believe it... or if he really believes it, has a history of thinking that way and acts on it - aka: a racist. We all live in glasses houses... so don't throw stones.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:37 PM   #56
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The problem is we are using that label "racist" way to liberally. I have no idea what he said, or do I really care - the problem is, all this "trash talking" that's going on in the game, and that we (may) consider good...
Why wouldn't you care if someone is using racial slurs? More or less you're just excusing his behaviour because you had poor behaviour in the past? That seems idiotic.

I'm all about forgivness and growth, but you still need to face consequences. I'm sure Manning knew what he said was deplorable. You don't need to attend klan rallies to be a racist, if you're mad and using racial slurs aimed at a minority is how you deal with that...you're a racist. You don't get a pass for being angry.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:39 PM   #57
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You have brought exactly zero evidence to support your claim that the Oilers can terminate the contract, Oiling. You've just decided that any "breach" creates the possibility, while completely ignoring the fact that the entire CBA(s) govern disciplinary processes.

You are assuming what you want is what can happen with no basis for it other than the fact that you want it.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:58 PM   #58
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You have brought exactly zero evidence to support your claim that the Oilers can terminate the contract, Oiling.
So did the Kings when they terminated Richards...I mean you would be arguing the exact same thing the day Richards was caught at the border. Because that's pretty much what everyone said about Richards. But he had his contract terminated none the less.

Many people said that when Dotchin had his contract terminated for being fat it was going to set a precedence like this and there was no way the Lightning could do it. And then they did.

If the proof isn't right in the contract he signed, I'm not sure what proof would satisfy you. The CBA says he must conduct himself based on the rules of the organization (which we can likely assume has its general morality clauses around racism) and his SPC requires him to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship. He failed both, I think we can safely agree.

Of which I agree, yes, the NHLPA would file a greivance, arbitration would be required, a settlement likely happens before hand. Which happened most recently with Dotchin and Richards. They set the precedence.

Again, I think you're getting confused as to what the Oilers could do and what the ultimate outcome would be. If the Oilers said he failed to conduct himself in the highest standard of morality, he broke his contract. They can put him on waivers and terminate the contract. There's not much stopping them from doing that. There's also far less stopping Manning from having his lawyer object and filing a lawsuit.

I think if anything you'll need to provide a reason as to why Richards was allowed to have his contract terminated when his own teammates were doing the same drugs and fighting far worse legal issues. Or why Dotchin had his for being fat when a lot of players came to camp out of peak physical condition.
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Old 01-22-2020, 02:12 PM   #59
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https://www.latimes.com/sports/kings...630-story.html

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“The NHLPA is likely worried about the precedent of a team voiding a player’s contract when that contract is drafted in way to be considered ‘guaranteed,’” said McCann, director of the Sports and Entertainment Law Institute at the University of New Hampshire.

“The NHLPA is probably concerned that if the Kings can void Richards’ contract for yet-to-be revealed reasons, could other teams escape their unwanted contracts by doing the same?”

McCann said Richards could eventually sue the Kings for breach of contract but only after exhausting his remedies under the collective bargaining agreement.

“Both Article 17 of the CBA and the standard player contract indicate that a player can pursue arbitration for a contract dispute,” McCann said. “This means that Richards would first have to arbitrate his grievance before a court would consider his arguments. Courts are also deferential to arbitration awards, which may make it difficult for Richards to seek judicial redress.”

An individual familiar with the Kings’ approach but also not authorized to comment suggested the morals clause in the standard player’s contract is the basis for the termination. The clause reads: the player also agrees “to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and to refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interest of the Club, the League or professional hockey generally.”
It's the same vague morality clause. And the same argument I'm putting forward. Obviously the NHLPA disagreed with Richards and it was eventually settled, but there was no real procedure from stopping the Kings from putting him on waivers and terminating his contract. There were options for Richards after the fact.

He was not charged when he had his contract terminated. So you can't cite any legal issues or inability to travel. Especially when Voynov actually did have the legal issues and your "precedence" argument.

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Yet in order for the Kings to terminate Richards' contract, it must do so in compliance with the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) between the NHL and the NHL Players' Association (NHLPA). In this situation, the Kings have alleged that Richards has materially breached the Standard Player's Contract (SPC). Under paragraph 14 of the SPC, a franchise can terminate a player's contract if the player: "(a) fail[s], refuse[s] or neglect[s] to obey the Club's rules governing training and conduct of Players, if such failure, refusal or neglect should constitute a material breach; (b) fail[s], refuse[s], or neglect[s] to render his services hereunder or in any other manner materially breach this SPC." Further, paragraph 2(e) of the SPC (known as a morality clause) states that the player must "conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interests of the Club, the League or professional hockey generally" (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/en/v3/ext/CBA...A_2013_CBA.pdf, at pg. 318-19). It is therefore presumed that the team is claiming that Richards materially breached his contract by acting in a dishonest and/or immoral manner that is detrimental to the Kings, the NHL, and/or pro hockey as a whole. In accordance with Article 17 of the CBA, these kinds of issues between teams and players are ruled upon by an impartial arbitrator, who will decide on whether the contract was rightfully terminated (Id.).
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At this moment, we don't officially know exactly what Richards did to warrant the termination of his contract. All we know is that it involved a border crossing issue and possibly prescription painkillers. So, we truly do not know if the termination will be upheld. However, as noted by sports law expert Eric Macramalla, barring extreme circumstances, an arbitrator will rarely uphold the termination of a player's contract since, "[a]rbitrators and judges take the individual right to earn a living very seriously and do not react favorably to an attempt to deprive someone of that fundamental right simply for the sake of convenience"
So I believe here's where your argument is, and where I agree. It's not likely that the termination is upheld. It's an extremely high threshold, and I don't know the last one to have that happened as both Dotchin and Richards settled with their teams and the league. But again, this would come up after the contract was terminated. You need to put forward some proof that a team can't terminate a contract on the grounds of morality clause in light of Richards. Not whether they would eventually lose the arbitration.
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Old 01-23-2020, 05:42 PM   #60
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The fact that you keep trying to equate someone accused of illegally transporting restricted drugs across the border to uttering a slur just underscores how ridiculous your position is. And yes, I certainly can point to the potential of legal trouble, because that is the thin veneer of legitimacy that the Kings pasted on for their charade. The Oilers simply don't even have that. It's not the same scale, it's not the same crime, and it doesn't have the same potential or real consequences.

Your argument is literally "they can terminate the contract because I want them to be able to".
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