GOAT Across All Sports

[GGG]

It’s Serena Williams

Clearly the most dominant in her field - check
Cultural Significance- check
Won Major while Pregnant - No one else has done this
Almost died and then returned to dominance.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

For what reason?

There are enough people within the sport that say Bobby Orr is the GOAT.

I think for the last two spots you could argue that Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps might have a bigger claim than Gretzky or Pele because they are the undisputed greatest swimmer and sprint athletes of all time, while Gretzky and Pele still have some dispute.

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Ha no Mayweather is nowhere close to the GOAT boxer. He made business decisions his entire career, ducking tougher fights to keep the undefeated record alive and waiting until people were far past their prime to finally fight them (Pacquiao for one). Hell of a businessman but isn’t even in the conversation for greatest ever.

Him being a complete ####### makes people question him but the idea he "ducks" people is overstated.

I don't like the guy but he's beat every single person that was put in his path.

Look at a guy like Canelo Alvarez. Mayweather fought him in what should have been his prime, but now Canelo is 54-1-2, and that one loss is to Mayweather and Mayweather pretty much dominated the fight. He's been knocked down once in his career, and he's rarely taken a big shot. We don't like him so he doesn't get mentioned, but technically and in terms of defense for sure he's probably the best boxer of all time.

[ResAlien]

Meh. He’s Sweet Pea with better PR

[Slava]

I enjoy these discussions, but it's really hard to compare athletes of different eras, let alone different sports. Like Gretzky is an easy one; would he even make most NHL squads today? I don't mean to diminish what he put up, because it was remarkable in it's day. But the overall sport has changed an enormous amount since that time. So yeah, 212 points is incredible, but what's the present day equivalent? I think that goes across most sports.

[octothorp]

I feel like part of the equation should be size of the pool of athletes you're competing against in your sport. Dominating a sport that's only played by a small number of athletes in 2 countries globally isn't as impressive as dominating a sport that's played everywhere.
And there are sports that have more than a hundred million active players, but that's not really accurate as well, because a lot of those are going to be casual athletes who aren't out there trying to be the GOAT. I think if you could produce stats on the numbers of high-school/college-age athletes in each sport globally, that would give you a comparison of just how competitive each sport is. Soccer, Cricket, Basketball, and Baseball, for example, are drawing from a much larger pool of aspiring GOATs than relatively regional sports American Football, Hockey, or those that have a relatively small pool of athletes entering the competitive system (golf). Even track and field is widely-practiced enough at a late-adolescent level that anyone with serious potential will get identified and put moved into competitive systems. Other sports like Badminton may have similarly strong competitive pools.

That doesn't mean that the GOAT athlete needs to come from one of those sports, but I don't think you can automatically say being a consensus GOAT in a low-participation sport puts you ahead of a disputed GOAT in a high participation sport.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by octothorp

I feel like part of the equation should be size of the pool of athletes you're competing against in your sport. Dominating a sport that's only played by a small number of athletes in 2 countries globally isn't as impressive as dominating a sport that's played everywhere.
And there are sports that have more than a hundred million active players, but that's not really accurate as well, because a lot of those are going to be casual athletes who aren't out there trying to be the GOAT. I think if you could produce stats on the numbers of high-school/college-age athletes in each sport globally, that would give you a comparison of just how competitive each sport is. Soccer, Cricket, Basketball, and Baseball, for example, are drawing from a much larger pool of aspiring GOATs than relatively regional sports American Football, Hockey, or those that have a relatively small pool of athletes entering the competitive system (golf). Even track and field is widely-practiced enough at a late-adolescent level that anyone with serious potential will get identified and put moved into competitive systems. Other sports like Badminton may have similarly strong competitive pools.

That doesn't mean that the GOAT athlete needs to come from one of those sports, but I don't think you can automatically say being a consensus GOAT in a low-participation sport puts you ahead of a disputed GOAT in a high participation sport.

I didn't think of it in these terms, but this is a good point. Not rescinding my vote for Brady yet, but I'm wavering.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

There are enough people within the sport that say Bobby Orr is the GOAT.

Yeah I think they are wrong.

Records, longevity, Cups, all point to 99

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yeah I think they are wrong.

Records, longevity, Cups, all point to 99

Stand up goalies who looked like they were trying to get out of the way of pucks.

Defenders whose skating was so bad it was comical.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Stand up goalies who looked like they were trying to get out of the way of pucks.

Defenders whose skating was so bad it was comical.

Yeah and if it was that easy there would have been tonnes of guys putting up those types of points.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Barry on roids. He was already an all-time great before the roids, but when he was peaking he was so ridiculously unstoppable. 232 walks in a year? WTF?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yeah and if it was that easy there would have been tonnes of guys putting up those types of points.

The whole 'what if they played today' argument fails against every test of logic anyways so it isn't even worth going down that rabbit hole.

What if Wayne had better equipment, training, doctors, diet? Not just in the NHL but from the time he started playing hockey. The list of positives, that would have made him even more dominant than he was, is endless .

What if he had to deal with twitter trolls, bigger players, media scrutiny, more travel? The list of negatives, that would make him a total bum in today's NHL, is endless.

Once you open the whole what if player x played today, it is an instant fail because it never manages to account for all of the positives and negatives.

Plus it isn't like Wayne played in the 30s or something. Wayne retired when several current NHLers already playing in the NHL!! Wayne's prime was a different era but not like when we talk Babe Ruth or Rocket Richard.

[Scorch]

I get that this is a Hockey Message Board but the praise Gretzky is getting is too much to be the GOAT of GOATS

Non team sports withstanding, the GOAT must be so good that he’s able to elevate his new team to championship contender. Brady just did it, LeBron did it, Gretzky couldn’t .

Not as a LA King
Not as a St. Louis Blue
Not as a NY Ranger
Not as a Olympic Canadian player

Gretzky was only able to win his Cups on a stacked Oiler team, but even the argument that he could win with talent is flawed because Gretzky was on a Heavily talented Olympic Canadian team in ‘98 and they couldn’t get a medal

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Scorch

I get that this is a Hockey Message Board but the praise Gretzky is getting is too much to be the GOAT of GOATS

Non team sports withstanding, the GOAT must be so good that he’s able to elevate his new team to championship contender. Brady just did it, LeBron did it, Gretzky couldn’t .

Not as a LA King
Not as a St. Louis Blue
Not as a NY Ranger
Not as a Olympic Canadian player

Gretzky was only able to win his Cups on a stacked Oiler team, but even the argument that he could win with talent is flawed because Gretzky was on a Heavily talented Olympic Canadian team in ‘98 and they couldn’t get a medal

Even accounting for Flames message board bias, this is the worst take I've ever read.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Tiger and Ali are both disputed IMO.

Ali is the most influential athlete of all time, but I’m not sure he’s the Greatest of Boxer all time.

Interestingly enough a name that’s probably being missed here is Floyd Mayweather - he’s a jerk but he’s undefeated and it’s tough to argue 50-0.

If needing to be the unanimous GOAT in your sport is a criteria then The Mt Rushmore should probably be

Tom Brady
Serena Williams
Wayne Gretzky
Pele

And I think even those last two are arguable

Well I think Woods had far tougher competition than Nicklaus. As for Ali I think it’s a bit tough to divorce influence and fame from the actual sports results. I agree on results no boxer stands out that much, but Ali’s fame necessitates his inclusion. On Serena no doubt she’s the best female tennis player of all time, but is she that much better than Graf or Martina to be a no doubt GOAT? Unsure on that. Pele probably does make it but I have to bow out there because of my lack of knowledge about the history of soccer.

I do think for team sports Brady is pretty much alone. He’s at the top on both regular season and post season records. You have people like Jordan or Russel who get the post season but not the regular season or Kareem who’s the opposite. Gretzky dominates so many awards/records, but only four cups on only stacked teams doesn’t go well. If he won that one in LA it would be a different thing but he didn’t.

[GGG]

The case against Brady for GOAT of GOATs is that he isn’t the most impressive QB in his own sport. Rogers, Manning, Montanna. Mahomes, Wilson are all more exciting QBs who don’t win as much.

The metric which makes Brady the GOAT is the most important one, Winning but when comparing to all the other GOATs his athleticism relative to his peers is lacking.

[Scorch]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Even accounting for Flames message board bias, this is the worst take I've ever read.

Cool, is this why no one shows up to your parties?

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by GGG

The case against Brady for GOAT of GOATs is that he isn’t the most impressive QB in his own sport. Rogers, Manning, Montanna. Mahomes, Wilson are all more exciting QBs who don’t win as much.

The metric which makes Brady the GOAT is the most important one, Winning but when comparing to all the other GOATs his athleticism relative to his peers is lacking.

This isn’t a question of style (Ali I guess being an exception). With Brees now retiring every significant regular season record is Brady’s or will be by the time he retires. The combination of holding all the regular and postseason records is what makes Brady unique.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GGG

It’s Serena Williams

Clearly the most dominant in her field - check
Cultural Significance- check
Won Major while Pregnant - No one else has done this
Almost died and then returned to dominance.

I think you're being influenced by the US-based tennis coverage we see, which is all Serena all the time. Accomplishments are not clear cut over other challengers, doesn't have the most slams, there are other players whose peak is stronger. I mean, I'm also biased because I think she's just... awful, leaving tennis aside, but I seriously think a this exalted status she gets is largely propaganda. And a lot of her success is a result of women's tennis being basically a mess for years.

People discredit Federer for beating up on a weak field until Nadal and Djokovic entered their primes, but realistically the field was more or less as good as ever until that happened, at which point the 3 best tennis players ever were playing at the same time. For about a five year stretch before mono and his back injury threw him off kilter, everyone else was literally playing for second place and most of his matches were like watching a completely different sport from what it had been immediately before he broke out... summed up by one announcer's call that sticks with me, which was, after a Fed winner, "that shot does not exist". You couldn't believe what you were watching, multiple times each match. It was quite Gretzky-esque in that regard. Williams has simply never had a run like that - her success has largely been accumulated over time. Her best periods were still marred by a lot of injury issues and unexpected disappointing losses to randoms and weird blow-ups, routinely papered over by American coverage.

As far as Brady goes, I can see the argument, but if the absurd degree of success he's managed in the NFL in terms of Super Bowls is the driving reason - and let's be honest, it is - shouldn't we be talking about Bill Russell? Because in terms of his actual level of play, Brady isn't exactly Gretzky or Jordan / Lebron compared to others at his position. He's certainly among the greatest pure performers ever, but it's not clear cut - for example, if you wanted to win one football game and could take any QB in their prime, it's not a foregone conclusion you're picking prime Brady. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you're picking prime Gretzky in hockey, or prime Jordan / Lebron for basketball, or prime Federer / Nadal for tennis (depending on the surface).

[Strange Brew]

Nicklaus is the greatest golfer of all time but Tiger transcended the sport.
Jordan did that for basketball and he is probably also the best player
Ali did that for boxing but we was not the greatest fighter.

So my Rushmore of athletes is Tiger, Ali, Jordan and then up for major debate IMO. Which maybe means there isn't a 4th.

GOATS of each major sport for me would be:
Orr
Jordan
Brady
Pele
Federer
Nicklaus
And i suppose Ruth.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think there are two ways to answer this questions

Who was the most dominant athlete within a single sport.
My answer: Tom.

Who is the overall GOAT athlete
My answer: Bo.