Will the NHL boycott games? Should it?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Brando

Lol. If identifying that some black people actually agree or compiled the data I related to you is the same as I know a black guy then sure. If you see any negative reference towards race as racism you have the problem. Pointing out that a demographic or group of people statistically commit crime at a higher rate then others, is not racist. It’s fact when supported by data. You could problem even go further and say that black males, not females, Living in low income areas, between the ages of 16 and 45 with no high school education account for 50 percent of violent crimes. And then go even further and say males of any race between those ages without a high school, living in low income areas commit 75 percent or more of violent crimes. Those numbers are a guess. But we could actually find out those numbers because we compile those stats. A lack of equity is not an indicator of racist institutions.

Despite numerous people responding to your posts in which you stated "The number of unarmed black people that get shot by police is high, due to the correlation with black people and violent crimes" is called racial profiling. If police are more "trigger happy" around black people because of their supposed violent crimes stat, that is racial profiling and it is racist. Even you are assuming it's "violent crime" related, by the color of their skin.

Your right that cops shoot unarmed people regardless of color, but the percentages are much higher towards blacks.

Not sure if you can get that through your thick skull? You are obviously the one with the problem and you are either too dumb or too ignorant to see it.

.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Brando

Look, I can tell you actually think their is an issue that needs to be fixed and is worth doing just as I do. We may not agree with your theory how to do it. But that is besides the point. The only point I was trying to make is that the narrative that police are shooting black people at a disproportional rate is simply not true. Total population is irrelevant to the stats I shared. Police do not shoot people when they are not present. The people that are not reacting with police cannot be shot police. So it is imperative that we use the stat of violent crimes when doing this math. Police are shooting their firearms when violent crimes have been committed or when a suspect turns a police interaction violent by resisting and fighting with police. Violent crime disparities account for the death by police disparities that you are pointing out. Unfortunately black men statistically account for a high disproportional amount of violent crime. This is the tragedy and is rooted in bad past government policy, poverty, lack of work opportunity in black neighbourhoods. It needs to be addressed but me pointing out those disparities is not racist. I don’t know how to be more clear.

You may have missed my earlier post in which I referenced a recent decision (2019) of the Supreme Court of Canada. In it, the Court cited (and accepted) numerous studies which concluded that police in Canada stopped racialized (particularly black and indigenous) persons more often than non-racialized persons (without justification). This obviously leads to more interactions with police and, among other adverse effects of this increased likelihood of interactions with police, therefore leads to higher risk of experiencing violence during those interactions.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I agree that this thread is a train wreck, but it is at least an example of the temporary boycott having had some of the intended impact by creating a situation that has brought the conversation to people who usually wouldn't be engaged at all. This thread wouldn't have enabled that in the OT forum.

Fair enough. I just thought I could pop in and see what the plan is going forward as I see more games being postponed. In no way am I against the message being sent.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I see what you’re saying and, for the record, don’t think you’re being racist, but I do think you’re presenting the facts in a way that supports what you believe. It’s worth considering at least, especially when your examples of unarmed White people getting shot involved them approaching police (sometimes aggressively) while many instances of unarmed Black people getting shot involves them walking or running away. There’s obviously a difference there, and dismissing the idea of racism in the police entirely is about as practical as suggesting every time an officer kills a Black person it’s because of racism.

Robert Sikon- nov 2019- white- fought with police shot while running away. Unarmed
Donnell Lang -April 2019- white- uncooperative while wearing handcuffs tried to run away. Shot in back. Unarmed.
Preston Azsust- Jan 2019- white- friend pulled a gun. He fled and was shot in back. Unarmed.
There are more examples. The fact is policing is really hard and an almost impossible job. A half second delay in reaction can end in the cop dying. This doesn’t exempt them from blame but it sure should make us want to fund them and give them the best training possible. Some of these agencies pay like 40 k a year. That’s not going to attract the greatest officers either. The training is subpar. I know that much. And I even readily admit there are some bad and even racist cops out there, because there are bad and racist people in every job. I do want to say as well some of these cases of police shootings are officers shooting or brutalizing their own race. This is very complex. I think we are creating more division and using the police for a scape goat more than we are helping this community.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Despite numerous people responding to your posts in which you stated "The number of unarmed black people that get shot by police is high, due to the correlation with black people and violent crimes" is called racial profiling. If police are more "trigger happy" around black people because of their supposed violent crimes stat, that is racial profiling and it is racist. Even you are assuming it's "violent crime" related, by the color of their skin.

Your right that cops shoot unarmed people regardless of color, but the percentages are much higher towards blacks.

Not sure if you can get that through your thick skull? You are obviously the one with the problem and you are either too dumb or too ignorant to see it.

.

Lol I literally laid out the numbers showing otherwise and you aren’t able to comprehend them and you call me dumb.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I think if everyone (of any race) complied with police demands to stand down fewer people would be shot/killed.

I think it is most likely a vicious cycle, though. The more I read about the Jason Blake tragedy, the more I tend to think that he is now permanently injured because the respoding officers deemed him to be an immanent, mortal threat. Where does that anxiety come from in the first place? I suspect it is borne out of long-standing stereotypes in the USA that have developed over generations about black people, but then also coupled with decades of prejudice that are closely intertwined with the history of policing in the US.

I get the sense that a high number of black people are already terrified of the police. That their own anxiety has also developed and become deeply engrained through generations of oppression by police departments, and stereotypes about who the police are and what they do.

So then, here we are in an age where that anxiety has reached a boiling point: police are terrified of black people, who are as equally or moreso terrified of the police. The first instinct for many irrationally terrified black people is to run from the cops, and the counter reaction of irrationally terrified officers is to eliminate the perceived threat. The results of this is horrible, senseless violence, and a chain-reaction of terror increased on both sides.

As an outsider looking in, a major part of the "Degund the Police" movement stems from this problem. As a means to break the cycle, deconstruct departments where the effects of generations of racism have continued to fester. Then, rebuild them in an effort to forge a new culture of cooperation with affected communities, and without the mutual anxiety.

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[Flamenspiel]

That’s part of it, but the fact that everyone in the US has a gun really speeds everything up in terms of reaction. It’s easier to de-escalate in countries where guns are not so prevalent.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Brando

Robert Sikon- nov 2019- white- fought with police shot while running away. Unarmed

Donnell Lang -April 2019- white- uncooperative while wearing handcuffs tried to run away. Shot in back. Unarmed.

Preston Azsust- Jan 2019- white- friend pulled a gun. He fled and was shot in back. Unarmed.

There are more examples. The fact is policing is really hard and an almost impossible job. A half second delay in reaction can end in the cop dying. This doesn’t exempt them from blame but it sure should make us want to fund them and give them the best training possible. Some of these agencies pay like 40 k a year. That’s not going to attract the greatest officers either. The training is subpar. I know that much. And I even readily admit there are some bad and even racist cops out there, because there are bad and racist people in every job. I do want to say as well some of these cases of police shootings are officers shooting or brutalizing their own race. This is very complex. I think we are creating more division and using the police for a scape goat more than we are helping this community.

I continue to think this is a problem that isn't simply going away by throwing more money at it. It seems to me that current problems stem from a long history of police interaction with minority or marginalized community groups. Maybe the best way to fix it is to strip the existing institution down, and start something new.

Robert Evans is admittedly not the most balanced source, but he is a very good reader and a solid researcher, and I think this study of his on the roots of policing in the USA is important to this discussion:

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-...lice-63877803/

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[Brando]

Originally Posted by Makarov

You may have missed my earlier post in which I referenced a recent decision (2019) of the Supreme Court of Canada. In it, the Court cited (and accepted) numerous studies which concluded that police in Canada stopped racialized (particularly black and indigenous) persons more often than non-racialized persons (without justification). This obviously leads to more interactions with police and, among other adverse effects of this increased likelihood of interactions with police, therefore leads to higher risk of experiencing violence during those interactions.

Yes I looked at it briefly and while I do have questions on how the data was collected, as it would be very difficult to compile without biases (I don’t believe officers keep track of every interaction), I do believe that it would have some effect on total numbers because those people would then be put in a situation that may turn violent, and maybe even understandably. With the current narrative of BLM being police are just shooting black people dead for no reason( lebron’s words) I looked into deaths at hands of police. That’s what I was speaking too. It showed a proportional number of deaths across race when taking into account violent crime committed. That doesn’t mean police don’t profile. We all do subconsciously, so it is obvious that police do as well. Believe me I believe the police need reform. They need a change of focus and Canada and the USA need to change laws to prevent incarceration and police interaction. Personally, from what I know about police training curriculum, I think they need more funding and not less, especially in the form of de escalation training which is almost non-existent. Some agencies are better than others.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Brando

Personally, from what I know about police training curriculum, I think they need more funding and not less, especially in the form of de escalation training which is almost non-existent. Some agencies are better than others.

The thing is, there isn't unlimited funding available, and the more funding the police get, the less funding other publicly funded social services get, some of which are better equipped to deal with certain situations than the police.

It's also how the the police choose to use their funds. Instead of using it on things like training or hiring qualified professionals that can better handle de-escalation and negotiation, instead of just meat heads with guns, they use the funds on weapons and vehicles to intimidate the public in many jurisdictions.

I actually feel sorry for some of these young officers that have to report to situations that are way beyond what they are actually qualified to deal with.

If you defund them, they are forced to use the funds that they do get, on more important things. Then the other funds can be used elsewhere.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

This has gone way off from anything to do with the NHL boycotting games and has become a race discussion. I have been camping and came to get info on the thread title subject but I am not wading through pages of debate that should be in the off topic forum. Would be nice if we could just stick to the NHL and not playing games here instead of having a detailed race debate.

You realize that racism is the reason why they stopped playing games right? I think it’s important for this conversation to be had, especially in places where it otherwise would not.

I couldn’t be more proud of the players across all leagues who used a once in a lifetime opportunity where the world was watching(because there’s very few other entertainment options right now) to do something very impactful. The leagues deserve a lot of credit too for being as supportive as they have been, what the NBA has committed to with turning their arenas into polling stations for the next election is a great example of something simple that can have a huge impact on the issue. Not to take anything away from the NBA doing this because it’s great but as helpful as it will be it most likely doesn’t happen if the players hadn’t done what they did.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You realize that racism is the reason why they stopped playing games right? I think it’s important for this conversation to be had, especially in places where it otherwise would not.

I couldn’t be more proud of the players across all leagues who used a once in a lifetime opportunity where the world was watching(because there’s very few other entertainment options right now) to do something very impactful. The leagues deserve a lot of credit too for being as supportive as they have been, what the NBA has committed to with turning their arenas into polling stations for the next election is a great example of something simple that can have a huge impact on the issue. Not to take anything away from the NBA doing this because it’s great but as helpful as it will be it most likely doesn’t happen if the players hadn’t done what they did.

You totally missed the whole point of my post.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Corral

Also - Colin kaepernick. Now there is someone taking a stand.

Well, no he didn't take a stand.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

That’s part of it, but the fact that everyone in the US has a gun really speeds everything up in terms of reaction. It’s easier to de-escalate in countries where guns are not so prevalent.

This! ....whereas I don't discount racial bias making things worse, having spent a good amount of time down in the US, the police down there are really twitchy. I got pulled over for speeding and the cop had his holster unlatched and hand on his gun as he approached. That has never happened to me in Canada.

[Elkyiv]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think it is most likely a vicious cycle, though. The more I read about the Jason Blake tragedy, the more I tend to think that he is now permanently injured because the respoding officers deemed him to be an immanent, mortal threat. Where does that anxiety come from in the first place? I suspect it is borne out of long-standing stereotypes in the USA that have developed over generations about black people, but then also coupled with decades of prejudice that are closely intertwined with the history of policing in the US.

and what percentage, if any, would the fact that black males are criminally over-represented, contribute to the officers assumption that the suspect is potentially dangerous?

Further, in the US, the driving population is evenly divided between males and females. How is it that they aren't killing women at nearly the same rate?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I agree that this thread is a train wreck, but it is at least an example of the temporary boycott having had some of the intended impact by creating a situation that has brought the conversation to people who usually wouldn't be engaged at all. This thread wouldn't have enabled that in the OT forum.

I would also say that it helps get the message across to those who wouldn't care (or still don't) otherwise. There is a significant amount of people who are ignorant to the racist hardships blacks have had to, and continue to endure.

It doesn't happen to them (non-blacks), and it doesn't effect them, so they wouldn't be aware, or really believe the injustice and flat out bullying that can occur from those with authority and power. But with this movement, and it's discussions happening within a sport of their interest, it provides an avenue for those who do want to understand why this is happening, and why the status quo can no longer stay the same.

[BigBrodieFan]

I was wondering if there would be a post on CP about the boycott and if it would spark a large discussion. I can't read through all of the posts but I have read through several.

If you don't live in the US or have never lived in the US and only ever lived in Canada, trust me when I say- the move to the US full time, especially near or in a big city, would shock you in regards to racial tensions and disparity.

The politicians and the media in this country are the biggest provocateurs when it comes to racial relations. I don't care what anyone says, they are the constantly the hot stick poking the fire, and that goes for the left, right, and moderate news channels. The political parties are a sham and the money behind most of the politicians are from old, white wealth. It doesn't matter which political party you agree or disagree with. They are all in it for money and power.

There are common misconceptions in the United States that get to the root of systemic racism. These misconceptions further cloud the views of the public and make race relations confusing.

For example, many people know that Abe Lincoln and the Republicans were anti-slavery and the South (pro-slavery) were Democrats. People say 'The parties switched' at some point. The truth is, the parties never switched. The truth is Democrats held every Senate seat in the South (South of Mason Dixon line) in 1960, 4 years before the Civil Rights Act. When the civil rights act passed in 1964, 80 percent of Republicans voted in favour, while there was strenuous backlash and opposition by Democrats in the South- and 21 Southern Democrats voted against the civil rights act. Of these democrats were the leaders of the KKK and even Al Gore's father. The fact that most people think that Democrats are 'for black people' gets confusing and is cause for argument and many misunderstandings. Historically they have not been, and if you read some of the Democratic laws passed since the Civil Rights Act, you'll see that many of them were designed to keep minorities poor and reliant upon government. Republicans also have passed legislation to try and swerve the South to the right, but it is interesting to note that several states became red in the past 20 years. Georgia for example, became Red for the first time in 2004.

The other common misconception is that United States pulled Africans from the arms of their families and forced them to come to America to be slaves. The truth of course is much more horrific and brutal. For two centuries, Africa sold over 10 million of their own people in what's now known as the transatlantic slave trade. Of the 10 million, the United States 'bought' around 3-4 percent, and the rest went to other places like Brazil, Jamaica, Haiti and other places in the South Atlantic. The misconception that the United States is the only country that brutalized slaves makes the disparity especially bad, even though slave ownership was horrible enough in the first place.

The biggest issue is, of course, where we are today. African Americans hold positions of power and influence and of course there are laws against segregation and racism. But honestly, we can't erase hundreds of years of prejudice and inequality in 40-50 years. The truth is, redlining has been the most detrimental aspect to inner city neighbourhoods and while they can say it doesn't exist anymore, we all know it does. There is a reason that someone with low income gets a car loan with 40% interest and someone with a higher income can get one for 0%. Our system is designed to keep minorities and poor people at the bottom, and people with money and wealth at the top. There is bias in every faction of the American economy. There is a reason why there can be 50 shootings in Chicago with 10 murders, all African American, and there is barely a blip on the news. It's because we don't value black lives in America. It might come to the attention of the world when a white cop shoots a black person, but honestly that's just a small percentage of the problem and the reason you see it on television is because the media knows it will get ratings. The media values the life of one black man who was shot by a white cop more than the lives of 50 black people who were shot and 10 who were killed because they can make a circus out of the coverage, and 'poke the fire' so to speak. Blacks, other minorities and the poor in America are seen as not important, or not AS important as others in society. If we tell ourselves that's not true, we are idiots.

People ask 'Why is there systemic racism' in the United States, and no one ever has an answer. No one ever bothers to talk about the brutal history of the US and the results of hundreds of years of racism. The truth is, there is systemic racism because the SYSTEM is designed to be that way. We can march, protest, tear down statues, boycott hockey games- but nothing will change here until black lives truly matter. I am not talking about only black lives that are lost by police shootings. I am talking about black communities and black culture in every way. They need to be treated equally and have equal opportunity from our government, our banks, our schools, and our leaders.

Instead, we have one party vs. the other ranting about who is more racist, and we're lost, confused, fighting, and segregated. It's a sad state of affairs.
But personally, my opinion is, if we don't address ALL of it, we keep putting a band-aid on the problem and as we've seen, it only gets worse.

But alas, the point of the thread- should the NHL boycott games? Honestly, I think it's disingenuous. Maybe the boycott was meant to be a symbol of support, but if we're being honest, hockey players are predominantly white and usually from families with means to pay for hockey in the first place. If I were an African American in the midst of this turmoil, I might feel a bit patronized by the gesture. Just my opinion of course.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

But alas, the point of the thread- should the NHL boycott games? Honestly, I think it's disingenuous. Maybe the boycott was meant to be a symbol of support, but if we're being honest, hockey players are predominantly white and usually from families with means to pay for hockey in the first place. If I were an African American in the midst of this turmoil, I might feel a bit patronized by the gesture. Just my opinion of course.

The NHL is just following the lead of the other leagues. It would draw unnecessary bad attention if they didn't do a mini hiatus.

Especially with the Bill Peters incident happening within this past season, the NHL needs to play the PR game that they are supportive of black lives.

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by Joborule

The NHL is just following the lead of the other leagues. It would draw unnecessary bad attention if they didn't do a mini hiatus.

Especially with the Bill Peters incident happening within this past season, the NHL needs to play the PR game that they are supportive of black lives.

Yes, I agree. Obviously they are following the lead, which makes it even more disingenuous. Just my opinion.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Yes, I agree. Obviously they are following the lead, which makes it even more disingenuous. Just my opinion.

Right. But as pointed out a few times in this thread, the NHL is in an unfortunate situation where whatever action they take will be criticised. If they follow the lead of other Leagues their actions are disingenuous. If they continue with games as usual their inaction is construed as callous and tone-deaf.

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