Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 12-06-2019, 09:30 PM   #21
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Events of Dec 7th, 1941


6:00 AM - The Japanese carriers tun into the wind and launch the first wave of 183 aircraft north of Oahu to make the 230 mile flight to Pearl


7:02 AM - The first Japanese attack wave is located on American Radar and bought to the attention of a junior officer who mistakenly identifies them as a expected incoming flight of B-17's and disregards the alerts


7:15 AM - The second wave launches consisting of 167 planes launches from their carriers


7:53 AM - Japan achieves complete surprise as the first wave begins their initial strikes. The first wave made up of 50 bombers, 42 Zeros and 40 Kate Bombers strike at Battleship row and airfields around the Islands


The second wave arrives and attacks remaining targets of opportunity including auxillary ships and harbor facilities to slow America's recovery



9:00 AM - The final Japanese Message is broken down. It directs its Washington Envoy to break off diplomatic relations with America




9:45 AM - The attack ends as Japan withdraws and a decision is made not to launch a 3rd wave. Aircraft recovery begins as the Japanese Fleet turns for home. All told 2400 people are killed and 1178 are wounded including 1104 sailers in the USS Arizona when its magazine explodes.


America has 4 battleships sunk, 3 damaged 3 cruisers damaged, 3 destroyers damage and have 188 Aircraft destroyed and 159 aircraft damaged. On the other hand Japans losses are relatively light with 4 midget subs sunk 29 aircraft destroyed and 74 aircraft damaged.



The third strike was designed to savage Pearls fuel and Ammunition storage facilities, dry dock facilities and key ship repair and maintenance hard points. If this wave would have been launch the US would have lost its key repair and re-supply facilities for their navy and especially their carriers possibly forcing the Americans to withdraw their navy to the US West coast.



10:00 AM - A follow up message to the Japanese Embassy in Washington is intercepted. It directs them to delay handling of the previous message until PM. American' intelligence now understands that an attack is imminent and the target is Pearl Harbor.


Communication lines from Washington to Hawaii are down forcing the War department to use commercial telegraph services to warn Hawaii of a possible attack


2:30 PM - The Japanese Diplomats in Washington meet with US Secretary of State Cordell Hull and deliver Japan's declaration of war.



While this was a widely successful attack by the Japanese it did have a couple of failure points.


The lack of a third strike allowed the American's to quickly bring Pearl Harbor back into trim and allowed them to stage their carriers into the Pacific Ocean.


The Japanese were disappointing by the poor intelligence leading up to the Attack they were hoping to catch the American Carriers in port. Instead through an incredible stroke of luck the Three American Fleet Carriers survived and later played key roles in rolling the Japanese back across the Pacific.


On Dec 7th - The USS Saratoga was in San Diego after completely a major over haul in Bremerton, WA. She was due to be transferred back to Pearl


USS Enterprise and Lexington were both at sea ferrying aircraft to American bases in the Pacific


The Enterprise had finished delivering Aircraft to Wake Island and was expected back at Pearl on Dec 6th. However she had been slowed by a heavy storm front and was actually fairly close to Pearl Harbor during the attack. Enterprise aircraft participated in the battle.



The Lexington was outbound to Midway when the attack took place. She was turned around and started to try to locate the Japanese Fleet, while the Enterprise stayed out and also started to try to locate the Japanese fleet. It should be noticed that it was fortunate that the American carriers failed to find the fleet as they would have been severely outnumbered by the 6 Japanese carriers that made up the forward attack fleet.


__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 12-07-2019, 04:14 PM   #22
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

What’s interesting and often overlooked is that Japanese forces simultaneously attacked and conquered many other regions in the Pacific. The attack on Pearl allowed them to carry out their true war aims which was to create a buffer between them and the West. That means the attack on Pearl was ultimately wildly successful. However, had the carriers been there, it’s likely Japan doesn’t lose the war in the pacific.

Racist Americans and British never thought in a million years the “yellow man” was smart enough challenge, much less beat a white Navy. They were sorely mistaken.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 04:45 PM   #23
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
What’s interesting and often overlooked is that Japanese forces simultaneously attacked and conquered many other regions in the Pacific. The attack on Pearl allowed them to carry out their true war aims which was to create a buffer between them and the West. That means the attack on Pearl was ultimately wildly successful. However, had the carriers been there, it’s likely Japan doesn’t lose the war in the pacific.

Racist Americans and British never thought in a million years the “yellow man” was smart enough challenge, much less beat a white Navy. They were sorely mistaken.
I don't know if that's true. From the books I read the American naval staff officers and combat command officers had a lot of respect for their counter parts had actually trained at American institutions like the US Naval academy on exchange programs before tensions flared. Also Japan's Navy had a long string of 20th century successes and victories including the Battle of Tsushima in WW1. As well American Naval officers had tremendous respect for Japanese technology at the start of WW2, they knew for example that the American Naval Aircraft were badly outclassed by Japanese Naval aircraft such as the Zero and the Kate Torpedo Bomber. American Naval officers also knew that the Japanese had great combat experience then their American counterparts and had for the most part been very successful.

You could be right about the British mainly because the British very much suffered from Victory fever in the same way that the Japanese suffered from it at Midway.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 12-09-2019, 02:21 PM   #24
FurnaceFace
Franchise Player
 
FurnaceFace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: 110
Exp:
Default

This is in front of the very tasteful monument to the Japanese soldiers on Peleliu. Sums up at least what one top commander thought of the soldiers.

__________________


Hockey is just a game the way ice cream is just glucose, love is just
a feeling, and sex is just repetitive motion.

___________________________________- A Theory of Ice
FurnaceFace is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FurnaceFace For This Useful Post:
Old 12-17-2019, 08:17 PM   #25
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

I just noticed Canada is listed as a belligerent on the Wikipedia page of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.

Why is this?

I understand the UK being listed as a cobelligerant, but not Canada.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 08:25 PM   #26
Weitz
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
I just noticed Canada is listed as a belligerent on the Wikipedia page of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.

Why is this?

I understand the UK being listed as a cobelligerant, but not Canada.
The Quebec agreement (or pact?) had it so the UK Canada and USA had to all agree to a nuclear attack. Also Canada was involved in developing the weapons, albeit a tiny amount.
Weitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 08:35 PM   #27
8 Ball
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Exp:
Default

Uranium
8 Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 08:41 PM   #28
Mr.Coffee
damn onions
 
Mr.Coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz View Post
The Quebec agreement (or pact?) had it so the UK Canada and USA had to all agree to a nuclear attack. Also Canada was involved in developing the weapons, albeit a tiny amount.
William Stephenson, born of Winnipeg, has one of the coolest World War 2 stories. Ian Fleming later wrote that part of the inspiration for the character James Bond was William Stephenson, the man codenamed Intrepid.

Intrepid requested “Wild Bill” Donovan, an American and Bill’s very close friend,, put together a secret intelligence agency for the United States, which later would evolve into the CIA.

Churchill, Intrepid, Donovan, the Canadian, British and American governments all coordinated via Intrepid, Donovan and others to eventually begin the blueprints and secret mission that became the Manhattan Project (atomic bomb). So, arguably, this one Canadian alone had a very significant part of that particular weapon. There was a ton of politics and uncertainty over who could be trusted, but a Canadian was one of them and helped smooth relations with everyone. Basically acting as the glue to make everything work. There is a book called “The Man Named Intrepid”. It’s awesome.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stephenson
Mr.Coffee is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mr.Coffee For This Useful Post:
Old 12-17-2019, 08:45 PM   #29
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

The way I understood it was that it was ONLY the UK and the US agreed to the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons. The decision was ultimately Truman's.

Canada provided the location for the Quebec agreement which took place in 1943, long before anything was decided, (or a nuclear bomb created) and provided support for the Manhattan project (as did many Allied nations). Canada did not enter into any agreement to "approve" the attack like the UK did, as far as I can tell.

Not sure I agree with listing Canada as a belligerent nation nor am I frankly comfortable with it because I flip flop on the morality of the decision itself.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 08:59 PM   #30
Mr.Coffee
damn onions
 
Mr.Coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Why do you flip flop on the morality of it?
Mr.Coffee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 09:04 PM   #31
8 Ball
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
What’s interesting and often overlooked is that Japanese forces simultaneously attacked and conquered many other regions in the Pacific. The attack on Pearl allowed them to carry out their true war aims which was to create a buffer between them and the West. That means the attack on Pearl was ultimately wildly successful. However, had the carriers been there, it’s likely Japan doesn’t lose the war in the pacific.

Racist Americans and British never thought in a million years the “yellow man” was smart enough challenge, much less beat a white Navy. They were sorely mistaken.
The Japanese thought that the white western people lacked the will to fight, and would give up. They believed the Japanese were superior people. They were every bit racist as the west.
8 Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 09:10 PM   #32
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 Ball View Post
The Japanese thought that the white western people lacked the will to fight, and would give up. They believed the Japanese were superior people. They were every bit racist as the west.

Yup and their conduct in terms of dealing with civilians and prisoners proved that more then any other nations.


The English might have under estimated the Japanese threat and they paid dearly for it, but just reading back nobody else did. The American's knew that the weak spot with the Japanese was that they wouldn't be able to fight a protracted war, they didn't have the resources and manufacturing to fight a war or attrition.


But the American's knew that the Japanese had a technological advantage in terms of air frames, and large capital ships. They knew that the Japanese Army was battle hardened and extremely disciplined and a suicidal level of resolve.


There were even some in the American Military that knew that they were going to take the first blow on the chin if it came down to a confrontation with the Japanese and they hoped that they would still have their head attached afterwords because the American's also knew that their awesome manufacturing capability would be the key to winning any war with the Empire of Japan.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 09:48 PM   #33
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
Why do you flip flop on the morality of it?


I guess it depends on what historian or commentator I’m listening to that day. My opinion often changes.

Sometimes I agree that the only way to stop the war was with a nuclear strike. The Japanese general population believed in victory until the last, despite 60 some Japanese cities being destroyed in conventional bombings.

Other times I am of the opinion that an invasion of one of the four main islands and a blockade of the rest would have been the solution, and reduced civilian deaths by a massive amount.

Perhaps a nuclear demonstration of a formerly occupied Pacific Island would have done the trick.

In other words, I’m not always convinced nuclear bombing the two cities was the right thing to do and the civilian lives paid.

One thing I am convinced of though, is that the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs were the real life lesson Krushchev and JFK needed to avoid a world nuclear holocaust in 1962. Had that devastation not happened, one of Krushchev or Kennedy May have been more inclined to strike the other.

So perhaps the sacrifice of those cities in 1945 saved the world preemptively.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 09:52 PM   #34
CroFlames
Franchise Player
 
CroFlames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 Ball View Post
The Japanese thought that the white western people lacked the will to fight, and would give up. They believed the Japanese were superior people. They were every bit racist as the west.


Racism was the theme of the 20th century among all major powers.
CroFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CroFlames For This Useful Post:
Old 12-17-2019, 11:07 PM   #35
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames View Post
I guess it depends on what historian or commentator I’m listening to that day. My opinion often changes.

Sometimes I agree that the only way to stop the war was with a nuclear strike. The Japanese general population believed in victory until the last, despite 60 some Japanese cities being destroyed in conventional bombings.

Other times I am of the opinion that an invasion of one of the four main islands and a blockade of the rest would have been the solution, and reduced civilian deaths by a massive amount.

Perhaps a nuclear demonstration of a formerly occupied Pacific Island would have done the trick.

In other words, I’m not always convinced nuclear bombing the two cities was the right thing to do and the civilian lives paid.

One thing I am convinced of though, is that the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs were the real life lesson Krushchev and JFK needed to avoid a world nuclear holocaust in 1962. Had that devastation not happened, one of Krushchev or Kennedy May have been more inclined to strike the other.

So perhaps the sacrifice of those cities in 1945 saved the world preemptively.
The American's had a lot of issues heading into the end game of the war.

They had seen the suicidal resolve of the Japanese troops during the island hopping campaign, the war department estimated that a land invasion of japan would cost 800,000 American lives and 1.7 million American casualties and up to 10 million civilian casualties.

There were other concerns, there were very few proper sites for an amphibious invasion of the home islands, and the Japanese would defend them accordingly.

The Army and the office of the president also believed that American civilian moral would plummet as the invasion would gut America's younger generation and probably add years to the war.

The Navy wanted a blockade with around the clock bombings of Japan which would have probably caused millions of Japanese casualties and extended the war.

At the same time Stalin started making moves in the East. The American's had to end the war quickly.

If you look at an example of Japanese resolve, there was no surrender after the first bomb.

The two bombings ended up with a death count of 226,000.

Probably in terms of hard math, the Atomic bomb strikes probably cost less Japanese lives then a naval blockade with around the clock bombings of Japan, or the alternative amphibious invasion with the rush to Tokyo.

There are questions of the morality of the use of the Atomic Bombs in Japan, but from a pure American and allies perspective I still believe it was the prudent choice to end the war quickly, and in a twisted hideous way it saved lives.

I also believe if the Atomic Bombs hadn't been used during WW2, at some point without the reflection of the horrors of the Atomic Attacks that maybe off set the sinister efficiency of those weapons that we probably would have seen the major leaders being more willing to use those weapons especially in the battlefield.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 08:20 PM   #36
slcrocket
Backup Goalie
 
slcrocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lakebay, WA
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
Why do you flip flop on the morality of it?
I find it hard not to. Anytime a large number of innocents die I think that's a pretty normal reaction.

Not trying to virtue signal here or anything - let's just say it's a decision I am very fortunate that I didn't have to make. God bless all the souls who were lost and all those involved.
slcrocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:52 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021