Canadians 'drowning in debt': 47% will borrow to cover costs, survey says

[Rhettzky]

One of the parents on my sons hockey team had their oven break down last winter. Instead of fixing it or just buying a new one they decided that ordering dinner every night would be cheaper. This was a family of four that ordered in every night for over 4 months (maybe even still today, they are on another team this year so no update on the search for an oven).

The moms rationale was that they eat out 3 or 4 times a week as it is, so to just extend that to 2 or 3 times to eat out every night "hardly costs anything" when you take into account that you are buying groceries for the home cooked meals as it is.

That's crazy to me.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

...paying for a bus pass instead of walking.

You're seriously hardcore if you think a bus pass is a frivolous expense. Use transit more than twice a day and its one of the best investments, I think.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

You're seriously hardcore if you think a bus pass is a frivolous expense. Use transit more than twice a day and its one of the best investments, I think.

I understand that some of these things are essential costs. My point was that we are so ingrained in a consumer culture that it can be difficult to string two days without buying anything in a row.

[GirlySports]

What about under 18 employment rates? Did more under 18s work 30 years ago than today.

Because making money at 16-17 puts you in a great starting position going forward.

[Azure]

It is always interesting when people say wages have stagnated.

Could be true, but it isn't the only problem. People take on crippling student loans, spend 4-6 years in college and university and come out on the other end so far in the hole that there is no way they can ever make ends meet for a very long time. That is what drowning in debt means.

How many skilled trade jobs are going unfilled? How many people do we all know who work in the trades and make good money and have a consistent job? I know quite a few across many industries making more than $100k.

Not only are we not educating our kids on how to be financially responsible, but we have pushed the college / university route so hard that it isn't surprising that some generations are so royally screwed.

What percentage of kids are graduating and not finding a relevant job to the degree that they got?

Any degree right now that isn't STEM related is almost a waste of time and will almost certainly be taken over by AI and automation.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I understand that some of these things are essential costs. My point was that we are so ingrained in a consumer culture that it can be difficult to string two days without buying anything in a row.

Oh, I agree 100% with the spirit of what you're saying, its just I felt this was a case of "one of these things is not like the other ones."

My two favorite investments for saving on micro transactions came from the dollar store. A stainless steel water bottle, and a thermos for hot drinks. Came to less than $10, and paid for themselves in less than three days.

Also, I'm coming up on four years of being completely nicotine free. That is a huge expense. I remember buying my first pack of smokes down the street from my high school way back in the day for $4.00. I remember smoking when they had risen to $10. I remember switching to buying only 20-packs of discount brands so I could psychologically justify it to myself for keeping it under $10 a pack (instead of $13 for premium brands). What is it now? Like $17 a pack. Jesus effing Christ. Quitting smoking is the best thing I ever did.

[GirlySports]

Speaking of.... what about the rise of privates schools? Last I checked those are 15k per year

Also private tutoring is on the rise.

[Aarongavey]

Wages increased 4.3 percent last year, more than double the rate of inflation. Canada has a pretty robust economy when it comes to wage growth these days. Higher wage growth leads to increased consumer confidence.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

One of the parents on my sons hockey team had their oven break down last winter. Instead of fixing it or just buying a new one they decided that ordering dinner every night would be cheaper. This was a family of four that ordered in every night for over 4 months (maybe even still today, they are on another team this year so no update on the search for an oven).

The moms rationale was that they eat out 3 or 4 times a week as it is, so to just extend that to 2 or 3 times to eat out every night "hardly costs anything" when you take into account that you are buying groceries for the home cooked meals as it is.

That's crazy to me.

This kind of reminds me of a friend of mine, who coincidentally claimed bankruptcy about 10 years ago(before I knew him).
He can't afford to bring his own beer golfing so we all have to give him beer, and can't afford to go out for wings and beer after golfing, so some guys will support him in that too. He can't afford to pay for his football pools or hockey pools unless he wins money.
He and his wife seem to buy take out every night, I asked him a couple of weeks ago if either one of the cook and he said no. I suggested they could probably do better with their money if they did, but doubt they ever will.

[The Yen Man]

I always find these threads seem to go in a pretty predictable pattern.

You have the regular pissing match between boomers and millennials, the boomer criticizing millennials for frivolous spending, while millennials blame boomers for putting society in this mess in the first place with their consumption.

Then you have the people getting all judgmental and feeling the need lecture the irresponsible spenders by saying how much they've saved, not kept up with the jones', learned financial restraint, don't travel, etc. I guess it's the same rehash of how they've been responsible with their money, but it's not like it's anything new that we haven't heard several times over already.

And then you have the doomsday people thinking we're all going to hell in a handbasket soon once the housing market collapses, and interest rates go back up. But lets be honest, interest rates may creep back up eventually, but they aren't going back up to 5 or 6 percent anytime soon. Not unless the government wants to crash the country's economy.

[Azure]

Even if interest rates do go up they won't go up by much at a time.

In the end there will probably be another market correction which is perfectly fine.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I always find these threads seem to go in a pretty predictable pattern.

You have the regular pissing match between boomers and millennials, the boomer criticizing millennials for frivolous spending, while millennials blame boomers for putting society in this mess in the first place with their consumption.

Then you have the people getting all judgmental and feeling the need lecture the irresponsible spenders by saying how much they've saved, not kept up with the jones', learned financial restraint, don't travel, etc. I guess it's the same rehash of how they've been responsible with their money, but it's not like it's anything new that we haven't heard several times over already.

And then you have the doomsday people thinking we're all going to hell in a handbasket soon once the housing market collapses, and interest rates go back up. But lets be honest, interest rates may creep back up eventually, but they aren't going back up to 5 or 6 percent anytime soon. Not unless the government wants to crash the country's economy.

I think you're assuming a lot of Gen X or early Millennials are boomers here.

Not everything is "cuz Boomers"

[peter12]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think you're assuming a lot of Gen X or early Millennials are boomers here.

Not everything is "cuz Boomers"

But it should be, amirite.

[flames_fan_down_under]

[GGG]

Originally Posted by you&me

Exactly. It would be exceedingly difficult to find a home suitable for a family of 6 for $450,000 in Calgary.

This would be like my grandfather saying he never spent more than $10,000 on a new car... Great - but you haven't bought a new car for like, 35 years!

By the standards of 1980 a 400k home in Calgary easily accommodates a family of six. A 900 soft house with 2 bedrooms upstairs and 1 in the basement accommodates 6 people. Kids sharing bedrooms was common and expected.

[Jason14h]

The people who don't save will have a fully paid off home, and can reverse mortgage, HELOC, downsize and use that money in retirement. Most will be fine, chilling at home having more entertainment options then ever, consuming cheaper goods then ever.



People tend to overestimate (unless they just want to travel a ton) how much they actually need in retirement per year. Or find ways to make side cash in retirement.



People who are saving a ton (and a lot are oversaving for retirement) will probably realize they have a ton more money then needed and either die and leave as an inheritance or use to give their children advantages in life (House downpayments, etc) This will allow their next generation (generally) to have a better chance of being a saver vs a debter.



The people who didn't save will then complain about the wealth distribution which will continue to widen.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Speaking of.... what about the rise of privates schools? Last I checked those are 15k per year

Also private tutoring is on the rise.

Cliff touched on this earlier... Activity creep for children is a real thing, leading some parents to feel like they're letting their children get left behind if the kids aren't in a different activity every day.

There are more and more activities and they're getting more and more expensive.

An anecdote - A mom we know told us how she switched dance studios for her 4yo when she found out the previous studio her daughter was enrolled at had 4 mandatory recitals throughout the year... in Vancouver, Toronto, Edmonton and Saskatoon... For 4 year olds!

So the dance classes cost ~$500 for the year, which is expensive, but not insane. But then there are recital registration fees, costume fees, and then travel, accommodation and dining expenses for these silly, meaningless shows...

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by stone hands

people underestimate how much everything adds up

to a lot of people, 20 or 30 bucks for a meal is just business as usual. i defy these people to get an app like mint and tell me that they would rather have memories of food eaten a month ago as opposed to thousands of dollars in their bank account today

Agreed.

The issue IMO is that people often disregard things all the time. $20-30 a meal, whatever, it's insignificant. But over time, it all adds up, but everyone kinda ignores it because it's too small. Let's say you work 20 days a month and spend $5 a day on coffee and confectionery for a total of $100 per month. How many people actually think this is substantial? We're talking $1200 per year and after a decade, that's $12K. BUT consider that this is done for dozens of things, not just a single item. Even if we assume that someone "only" wastes $500 per month (grab gum, grab snack, random purchase that was used once and collects dust, extra eat out, cigs/alcohol, spoiled groceries, heat>sweater, make up etc.), that's $6K per year or $60K a decade.

But no one drowns if they're only wasting $500 a month. Very likely, people are blowing through an extra $1000-3000 per month on the excess from a baseline necessity item. Let's also not forget what seems to be a baseline these days is also technically overkill from what a baseline was 20 years ago. Things like buying a house that's $150K more is like $4500 a year in interest to a bank at 3%, let alone the higher monthly payments (though arguably you get equity). A $45K car over a baseline $30K car is like $3K extra over 5 years. This also doesn't account for debt that's generally front loaded. $1500 a month in waste is $18K a year which is also $180K a decade. That's a lot, especially if it's something you've hardwired yourself to just ignore or forget. I will say though, that' spending this excess isn't wasting it, unless you literally did not enjoy spending this amount or are barely aware you spent this amount.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by GGG

By the standards of 1980 a 400k home in Calgary easily accommodates a family of six. A 900 soft house with 2 bedrooms upstairs and 1 in the basement accommodates 6 people. Kids sharing bedrooms was common and expected.

Sounds like a nightmare.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Financial literacy is so important and something that isn't really taught early enough in my opinion. There should be comprehensive courses in maybe Grade 10 where students get taught what credit is, good debt vs bad debt, car loans, appreciation vs depreciation, financing vs leasing, etc. Then a lesson on saving for an emergency fund and how to budget. Parents should definitely be talking to their children about these subjects as well.

As has been mentioned the cost of living in major cities is pretty high and will eat away at a lot of peoples income. There is still a lot of resistance to densification all over Vancouver combined with a lack of rental housing and things are continuing to skyrocket.

Also people need to be honest with themselves before they move to a place like Vancouver or Toronto in what they are willing to sacrifice in terms of an expected lifestyle or standard of living, for instance owning a car in BC is likely more expensive than anywhere else in Canada.