Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > Fire on Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum
Ivrnet

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2017, 02:53 PM   #121
jayswin
Celebrated Square Root Day
 
jayswin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wireframe View Post
I'm excited to see what Lazar can do. I'm not expecting much because there isn't anything new in Calgary that wasn't in Ottowa. There is no reason that he should be able to put it together here when he couldn't there. I know, he had mono and was rushed in too young. So there is a chance that he will step up now that he is a little older. Either way, it's a very low-risk signing and trade.
The bolded sentences kind of contradict each other, no?
jayswin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 03:00 PM   #122
wireframe
Crash and Bang Winger
 
wireframe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin View Post
The bolded sentences kind of contradict each other, no?
In a way they do. I'm saying that I'm not totally sure that being healthy is going to make a huge difference. It could be that he isn't a good nhl player and being sick further limit his already weak play.

Although it could also be that he's incredible and sickness kept him back. Like I said, low risk signing that is easy to get behind
wireframe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 03:02 PM   #123
jayswin
Celebrated Square Root Day
 
jayswin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

All past incidents seem to indicate that mono all but writes off a professional sports season. I still have high hopes for him.
jayswin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jayswin For This Useful Post:
Old 07-16-2017, 03:11 PM   #124
PugnaciousIntern
Powerplay Quarterback
 
PugnaciousIntern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin View Post
All past incidents seem to indicate that mono all but writes off a professional sports season. I still have high hopes for him.
Mono really takes the stuffing out of you.

Personally I'm surprised he played any NHL games in the same season he had mono. The illness really drains on your energy and your weight.
PugnaciousIntern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 09:08 AM   #125
Textcritic
Acerbic Cyberbully
 
Textcritic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wireframe View Post
I'm excited to see what Lazar can do. I'm not expecting much because there isn't anything new in Calgary that wasn't in Ottowa. There is no reason that he should be able to put it together here when he couldn't there. I know, he had mono and was rushed in too young. So there is a chance that he will step up now that he is a little older. Either way, it's a very low-risk signing and trade.
Guy Boucher plays a passive trap game that is quite different from Glen Gulutzan's puck possession attack. The Senators were the lowest scoring team to make the playoffs last year.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"The Lying Pen of Scribes" Ancient Manuscript Forgeries Project
Textcritic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Textcritic For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 09:16 AM   #126
wireframe
Crash and Bang Winger
 
wireframe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
Guy Boucher plays a passive trap game that is quite different from Glen Gulutzan's puck possession attack. The Senators were the lowest scoring team to make the playoffs last year.
Great point. So there is a pretty good chance that Lazar will score more this year. It was almost impossible to score less but the system and health are going to factor in.
wireframe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 09:53 AM   #127
rotten42
Scoring Winger
 
rotten42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern View Post
Mono really takes the stuffing out of you.

Personally I'm surprised he played any NHL games in the same season he had mono. The illness really drains on your energy and your weight.
agreed....my son had it and he didn't regain his strength for 6 months.
rotten42 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rotten42 For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 11:15 AM   #128
JohnnyTitan
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Exp:
Default

Meanwhile - Alex Formenton was not invited to Canada's Summer World Junior Development Camp.

I know he doesn't turn 18 until Sept...but I just want to keep everyone updated on the player who Ottawa took with Calgary's pick in the 2nd round. There was a lot (way too much!) backlash over trading that pick for Lazar in my opinion. So I'll keep watching Formenton on behalf of all of you! ;-)

Love you Curtis!
JohnnyTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 11:17 AM   #129
Samonadreau
First Line Centre
 
Samonadreau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTitan View Post
Meanwhile - Alex Formenton was not invited to Canada's Summer World Junior Development Camp.

I know he doesn't turn 18 until Sept...but I just want to keep everyone updated on the player who Ottawa took with Calgary's pick in the 2nd round. There was a lot (way too much!) backlash over trading that pick for Lazar in my opinion. So I'll keep watching Formenton on behalf of all of you! ;-)

Love you Curtis!
Backlash from flames fans?
Samonadreau is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Samonadreau For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 11:23 AM   #130
Anduril
#1 Goaltender
 
Anduril's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Exp:
Default

Seems like such a strange practice to compare the player selected with the pick that was given in a trade when there's zero guarantee that the Flames would have selected the same player, went through the same development and given the same opportunities.
Anduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 11:33 AM   #131
The Cobra
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anduril View Post
Seems like such a strange practice to compare the player selected with the pick that was given in a trade when there's zero guarantee that the Flames would have selected the same player, went through the same development and given the same opportunities.
This is correct.

Whether this player turns out to be great or crappy doesn't affect he trade value.

A 2nd round's value is based on what it is, not on what another team does with it.
The Cobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 01:35 PM   #132
wireframe
Crash and Bang Winger
 
wireframe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobra View Post
This is correct.

Whether this player turns out to be great or crappy doesn't affect the trade value.

A 2nd round's value is based on what it is, not on what another team does with it.
Since there is no way of knowing who the flames would have taken with the pick, the player Ottowa took is the best approximation we have. There is no defined value for a generic second round pick. So the best thing we can compare Lazar to when evaluating the trade is the player who was taken with that second round pick. Yes, it's not perfect because the Flames may have taken someone different, but it's probably close enough.
wireframe is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wireframe For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 01:44 PM   #133
The Cobra
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wireframe View Post
Since there is no way of knowing who the flames would have taken with the pick, the player Ottowa took is the best approximation we have. There is no defined value for a generic second round pick. So the best thing we can compare Lazar to when evaluating the trade is the player who was taken with that second round pick. Yes, it's not perfect because the Flames may have taken someone different, but it's probably close enough.
But suggesting it s good trade because the pick flames out, or a bad trade if the picked player does well, makes zero sense.

A 2nd round pick has a certain value. Let's leave it at that and not compare a player the Flames likely would not have picked.
The Cobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 01:48 PM   #134
wireframe
Crash and Bang Winger
 
wireframe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobra View Post
But suggesting it s good trade because the pick flames out, or a bad trade if the picked player does well, makes zero sense.

A 2nd round pick has a certain value. Let's leave it at that and not compare a player the Flames likely would not have picked.
But it does make sense to compare the player picked if you assume that teams have similar lists, which is a fair assumption early in the draft. A second round pick can't have a set value because each draft if unique.
wireframe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 01:58 PM   #135
Da_Chief
Franchise Player
 
Da_Chief's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wireframe View Post
But it does make sense to compare the player picked if you assume that teams have similar lists, which is a fair assumption early in the draft. A second round pick can't have a set value because each draft if unique.
If youre going to do that then take the pick + 5 or so picks around that player.
See how 5-6 players are doing, suggesting flames couldve picked one of those guys.
Da_Chief is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Da_Chief For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 02:00 PM   #136
wireframe
Crash and Bang Winger
 
wireframe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Chief View Post
If youre going to do that then take the pick + 5 or so picks around that player.
See how 5-6 players are doing, suggesting flames couldve picked one of those guys.
Yes. That makes sense to me. As long as you don't assume that the Flames will always pick the best player out of any group of 5.
wireframe is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wireframe For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 02:01 PM   #137
The Cobra
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wireframe View Post
But it does make sense to compare the player picked if you assume that teams have similar lists, which is a fair assumption early in the draft. A second round pick can't have a set value because each draft if unique.
By the time you get to the middle of the first round, lists vary greatly.

I doubt the Flames had better than a 15% chance of picking the same guy.

A second round pick in a certain draft has that value based on the strength of that draft. It's not like you don't know what draft you've traded a pick in.

And the value of drafts tend to differ more at the top end. Once you get into the 2nd round, most drafts are pretty much the same.
The Cobra is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to The Cobra For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2017, 02:13 PM   #138
TheAlpineOracle
#1 Goaltender
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Exp:
Default

Where is all this potential people are talking about with Lazar? Is it because he smiles a lot and we remember him from a WJHC tournament that often never translates to NHL success? The guy was never slotted to be anything other than a bottom 6 player, mono or not.

Is this a decent contract with little risk and some potential upside? Yup, I agree with that. When you factor in we gave up a 2nd round pick for it, that's where the shine definitely comes off. Bottom 6 players are easily had, and can easily be filled by someone from the farm at the same or cheaper price. I don't think you use a 2nd round pick for depth unless it's at the trade deadline, you are a in a position to win now, and the player you are getting back is a proven commodity.

I give Treliving a great deal of credit, but this is not a deal I can ever get behind. Hopefully Lazar proves me wrong and lights it up, but I don't that's going to be the case. We bought far too high on Lazar in my opinion. Probably going to be another Shinkaruk. Recognizable name, who really isn't going to ever live up to it.

Last edited by TheAlpineOracle; 07-17-2017 at 02:23 PM.
TheAlpineOracle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:32 PM   #139
Fighting Banana Slug
First Line Centre
 
Fighting Banana Slug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle View Post
Where is all this potential people are talking about with Lazar? Is it because he smiles a lot and we remember him from a WJHC tournament that often never translates to NHL success? The guy was never slotted to be anything other than a bottom 6 player, mono or not.

Is this a decent contract with little risk and some potential upside? Yup, I agree with that. When you factor in we gave up a 2nd round pick for it, that's where the shine definitely comes off. Bottom 6 players are easily had, and can easily be filled by someone from the farm at the same or cheaper price. I don't think you use a 2nd round pick for depth unless it's at the trade deadline, you are a in a position to win now, and the player you are getting back is a proven commodity.

I give Treliving a great deal of credit, but this is not a deal I can ever get behind. Hopefully Lazar proves me wrong and lights it up, but I don't that's going to be the case. We bought far too high on Lazar in my opinion. Probably going to be another Shinkaruk. Recognizable name, who really isn't going to ever live up to it.
Drafted 17th in a pretty deep 2013 likely means he has a bit more upside than you suggest. Even if he is destined as a bottom 6, it isn't "easy" to find good bottom 6 players. I don't know the exact stats, but I think it is something like 85% of second rounders wouldn't get that far in the NHL.

I do agree that this isn't really that big a deal, but I do think it is a decent one. He doesn't need to light it up for it to be a positive for the Flames.
__________________
From HFBoard oiler fan, in analyzing MacT's management:
O.K. there has been a lot of talk on whether or not MacTavish has actually done a good job for us, most fans on this board are very basic in their analysis and I feel would change their opinion entirely if the team was successful.
Fighting Banana Slug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:39 PM   #140
Flames Draft Watcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wireframe View Post
But it does make sense to compare the player picked if you assume that teams have similar lists, which is a fair assumption early in the draft. A second round pick can't have a set value because each draft if unique.
Teams do not have similar lists early in the draft so that would be a bad assumption to make. I agree with the previous poster, should look at a 2nd rounder as a commodity worth what 2nd rounders are typically traded for.
Flames Draft Watcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:06 AM.

Calgary Flames
2016-17




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016