Home Theater Mega Thread

[GranteedEV]

somehow double posted

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Ha...what hasn't? Thanks for suggestion, I'll look into them. Looked at Wharfedale too, those may be a bit too pricey but will check em out. Any reason to stay away from Polk or Kef? My dad had a set of Polk Audi for his record players years back and always thought they sounded pretty good but they were used for Music.

KEF has some of the finest engineering the industry.

Also....seems like a lot of purists snub their noses on dedicated center channels and suggest instead another bookshelf sitting upright for proper "sound orientation" What's everyones thoughts on that?

Just for some context, the kind of center speaker that you should probably avoid is this:



This is an M-T-M configuration. Additionally it has a lot of space in between drivers.

The reason for avoiding this is not elitism, but rather the way this kind of design interacts with your ears and the environment.

Our ears are most sensitive and discerning in the range between ~900hz and ~5kHz, give-or-take.

In the above configuration, you'll typically have the tweeter handling frequencies above ~2.5khz, and the midwoofers handling frequencies below that.

However, this handover between tweeter and woofer is not a brick wall cutoff. It's a gradual transition where the tweeter is still active as low as an octave below that crossover frequency (so as low as ~1.25khz) and the woofers are still active as high as an octave above that crossover frequency (so as high as 5khz)

Now factor in the following facts:

- midwoofers are not omnidirectional at higher frequencies. Individually they begin to beam sound even before they hand off to the tweeter.

- The woofers are not indivudal either way, and will be out of acoustic phase with each other causing sound wave cancellations. They are way too far apart for these frequencies they are responsible for.

- the woofers at some point will fall out of phase with the tweeter as well. You can match acoustic phase on the listening axis, but not on every axis unless the center to center distance is less than a quarter of the wavelength at that frequency

- we have two ears, which are in different locations horizontally, but the same height vertically

- One of the keys to a natural sounding speaker in a room is having an even distribution of horizontal frequency response (often referred to as polar response) on sound from the first and second earliest reflection (roughly 60-75 degrees off-axis horizontally)

- reflections from floors and ceilings are less easily able to be discerned by our auditory systems. Simply put we as a species haven't evolved that as well as we have horizontal listening skills.

- One of the keys to having a wide listening sweet spot is a consistent frequency response within the listening window (+- 30 degrees horizontlaly, +/- 15 degrees vertically)

Now that MTM design above, when placed horizontally, basically ignores every rule of good speaker design, and only exists because its form factor is convenient.

one superior design is the W-TM-W design:



It may look similar at first glance, but it is actually a very different (but pricier and more complex) design. The tweeter and midrange are oriented vertically and spaced tightly, so there are no or few horizontal cancellations in their active frequency range, which os the same range I noted as bring our most sensitive range. The small midrange also has more even off-axis response than a larger midwoofer would, never mind two larger midwoofers. The tweeter's response is also matched to the woofer through the use of an elliptical waveguide so the handoff between them is as inaudible as possible.

And while the two woofers are still unideally separated horizontally, their effective frequency range is lower, so the impact of their spacing is much less likely to affect either the listening window response or the off-axis reflected response.

of course, if your HT allows, it would still have been better for your center to have been a matched third identical LCR behind an acoustically transparent screen:



but compromise does sometimes need to be made, in a living room with a TV.

Do I have a personal preference for a typical center speaker type? Yes-and-no. I prefer phantom centers (from the left right) to discrete centers anyways because discrete centers seem to pull the sound below or above the screen and I find that distracting. But if I were going to use a center, I would probably use the W-C-W design over the W-TM-W design.



the 'C' stands for coaxial, and specifically this kind of concentric midrange speaker is different from some of those gross car audio coaxials. The tweeter is embedded into the midrange, and the midrange acts as a waveguide. Since it's a larger (8") midrange, the crossover to the woofers is pushed even lower down the frequency range. Getting this kind of speaker "right" isn't easy, and the one I am showing a picture of actually uses a lot of DSP and active amplification for individual elements to achieve what it does, but that's getting a little too specific.

Point being, cheapo M---T---M centers are the one I'd avoid. Even just orienting them vertically makes them better speakers immediately, although still not my design preference

Incidentally, KEF specializes in coaxials, and while their designs are slightly different from what I proposed, they're probably the most accessible option you will find for a W-C-W center along with whatever fronts are part of thr same family.

https://ca.kef.com/products/q650c-ce...hannel-speaker

[GoinAllTheWay]

/\/\/\ Man, THANK YOU!


That's the easily the best explanation I've read so far. Ya, that's exactly what I was driving at, people snubbing the kind of speaker shown in your first pic and better to use an upright bookshelf instead. I like lower profile so will look for the one in your second pic but ya, haha, looks pricey. Buy once cry once IMO.



Basically my situation is this....been waiting years to put together a home theater. We assumed we would have moved by now but market isn't getting any better. I live in a decent sized townhouse with a basement that I think is begging for a home theater. It's well insulated for sound and a great size so figured to get started, I could pick up some good quality bookshelf speakers, a center set of sorts for under the TV to go along with a 12" powered sub I already have and have a decent 5.1 system until we move. A receiver too naturally.



At that time, I could then buy some good floor standing speakers, and use the bookshelf ones I have to round out a 7.1 system.


Is that dumb? I have soundbars at the moment and while they are miles better than TV speakers, they aren't that great. I'd really like to have better quality sound.



I'd be using the system primarily for movies (HD/Bluray, Plex and streaming), no real emphasis for music but if the receiver I pick up has someway of doing that, all the better. Room is approximately 20ish feet by 15 feet. Already have a good wall mounted TV, just need the sound going.


On the receiver end for a sec....if I bought a 7.1 capable receiver, I assume it can be used in a 5.1 configuration?

[TorqueDog]

A 7.1 capable receiver will work just fine for a 5.1 setup in the interim. The receiver should detect no speakers are connected to the rear surround channels (a 5.1 is 2 Front - 1 Center - 2 Side - 1 Sub) or you can change the speaker configuration in the receiver setup menu to reflect this.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

/\/\/\ Man, THANK YOU!


That's the easily the best explanation I've read so far. Ya, that's exactly what I was driving at, people snubbing the kind of speaker shown in your first pic and better to use an upright bookshelf instead. I like lower profile so will look for the one in your second pic but ya, haha, looks pricey. Buy once cry once IMO.



Basically my situation is this....been waiting years to put together a home theater. We assumed we would have moved by now but market isn't getting any better. I live in a decent sized townhouse with a basement that I think is begging for a home theater. It's well insulated for sound and a great size so figured to get started, I could pick up some good quality bookshelf speakers, a center set of sorts for under the TV to go along with a 12" powered sub I already have and have a decent 5.1 system until we move. A receiver too naturally.



At that time, I could then buy some good floor standing speakers, and use the bookshelf ones I have to round out a 7.1 system.


Is that dumb? I have soundbars at the moment and while they are miles better than TV speakers, they aren't that great. I'd really like to have better quality sound.



I'd be using the system primarily for movies (HD/Bluray, Plex and streaming), no real emphasis for music but if the receiver I pick up has someway of doing that, all the better. Room is approximately 20ish feet by 15 feet. Already have a good wall mounted TV, just need the sound going.


On the receiver end for a sec....if I bought a 7.1 capable receiver, I assume it can be used in a 5.1 configuration?

Your idea is not dumb if you truly will regularly use and enjoy the set up. One additional consideration to also make is whether you want to spend the time tinkering with your set up. If you're cool with that and cool with the fact you may always have to assist others for the sound set up, then go for it.

Also, is this system majority for your enjoyment (ie: 80%+) or are there others who will use this regularly who will truly enjoy/appreciate the improvements you have made and are also willing to deal with learning the increased complexities of having extra remotes and sound options etc. If it's mostly for you... my controversial comment is to consider a headset/headphone set up.

I have both a home theatre set up and a sound bar set up and while I can hear the difference to nearly an audiophile level (auditory accuracy required when playing violin and being in an orchestra to pick out the different sounds in different sections help a lot), I honestly noticed that I don't really care all to much about the sound quality difference. I mean, it's cool at times listening to a FLAC and the extra immersion as I am able to better differentiate the type of drum used in the low range. But in general, I'd take Spotify app streaming at lower quality any day over dragging around an mp3 player (I understand the irony of the name) due to the convenience. My wife can hear the difference, but would rather lower quality sound to less complexity for options.

If I went all out, I'd personally swap to a sound bar $1000-1500 vs a similarly priced 7.1 home theatre system based on form factor, convenience and less setup if given the option. Incremental improvement with a sort of 5.1-7.1 experience, I'd spend $200-400 on adding headphones to the existing set up. I'm currently using sub $500 sound system and sound bar options though (although I don't know what they're worth now replacement cost wise due to the insane spikes in current costs of systems).

I often get too many complaints of "DoubleF, I don't know how to use your complicated set up" etc. from the family + grandparents and friends will state they're scared to screw things up. Even those who know how to use claim they're worried about screwing up my settings. Come on people, it's honestly not that hard. Then I got the set up pretty good and they started complaining that surround sound footsteps with the right echoes in some movies freaked them out... and it wasn't even a scary movie or scene. Add in tweaking the different Dolby options, THX options built into my receiver and some other sound stage/equalizer options on the receiver, they start acting like the thing is an alien object even if I set it up so they can just "turn it on and use it".

I just moved my home theatre set up to a personal gaming set up + headphones and I'm personally quite happy with that for immersive sound. I totally understand why some people like going with a really nice set up, but more often than not, I sorta see those systems collect dust more than get solid use solely due to a home theatre set up vs sound bar scenario. I plug my headphones directly to the receiver, but I also discovered I could plug directly into my PS5 controller and IMO the sound quality was much better than I expected. For the cost of $200 headphones (as an example), it was vastly superior by a huge margin to a $300-500 soundbar set up or $300-500 in incremental improvements to my home theatre set up IMO, and that's not including the additional options that headphones offer. I can use my headphones while sound is still playing via the sound system if I'm with my wife, but I honestly don't care that much. I regularly swap between $200 Sennheiser open back headphones and Beyerdynamic $300 headphones depending on what I'm aiming for when gaming or watching stuff by myself though.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Will be 50/50 me and my wife. She's not at all likely to use it without me so the WAF isn't an issue.

Then I got the set up pretty good and they started complaining that surround sound footsteps with the right echoes in some movies freaked them out...

That's the point!


Your suggestions about headphones is a decent one, I just hate wearing them. Can't stand them and almost the whole time I'd be using the system, it would be with my wife/friends so that wouldn't work.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

/\/\/\ Man, THANK YOU!


That's the easily the best explanation I've read so far. Ya, that's exactly what I was driving at, people snubbing the kind of speaker shown in your first pic and better to use an upright bookshelf instead. I like lower profile so will look for the one in your second pic but ya, haha, looks pricey. Buy once cry once IMO.

Yeah, that second one I linked is very-high end although there are definitely plenty of options. I'm a bit more of a DIYer when it comes to speakers so I don't know a ton of what's available in the lower-mid price range. I pretty much just tend to look at the high-end stuff and try to see what is worth "borrowing" from their engineering.

The one I linked at the end of that post however really is worth checking out.

Basically my situation is this....been waiting years to put together a home theater. We assumed we would have moved by now but market isn't getting any better. I live in a decent sized townhouse with a basement that I think is begging for a home theater. It's well insulated for sound and a great size so figured to get started, I could pick up some good quality bookshelf speakers, a center set of sorts for under the TV to go along with a 12" powered sub I already have and have a decent 5.1 system until we move. A receiver too naturally.

At that time, I could then buy some good floor standing speakers, and use the bookshelf ones I have to round out a 7.1 system.

So if I were putting together an HT, here's what I think I would probably experiment with:

- for surrounds, I would buy a couple (or four.... to... eight...) of these

https://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-a...ression-driver

Now these are ceiling speakers so you do need to build some sort of backer box for mounting them, but eh. The rest is all there already, crossover, tweeter, midwoofer. They're pretty much ideal surrounds.

Now yes you could buy two, but I just don't think they're too expensive, nor do they need to be. But I suppose everything is relative

EDIT: OOPS - sorry, for some reason I didn't look at the price of that. Yeah that's probably a horrible suggestion. I thought they were like a $150 from my recollection of the last time I was looking at them.

- for fronts, I would forgo the center altogether and instead toss that budget towards those floorstanders. So it would be a 6.1 (or 4.1) system instead of of a 5.1. Now front speakers are really something like 80-90% of what you hear (and even moreso if you're doing it my way of having the Left/Right also serve the purpose of the centre) so this is where you put as much of your budget as possible. KEF is one brand I mentioned earlier, but I'm sure there are others. Focus on speakers that measure strong. I can elaborate more on what measurements to look for if you're interested, but the gist of it is this: Speakers don't create sound. They reproduce it. If the audio recording is a painting at a museum, the speaker is a monitor showing you a picture of that painting. The monitor shouldn't be enhancing that painting, but rather changing as little as possible in your environment so you can see something close to what that painting actually looks like. So to find a monitor that is as accurate as possible within your budget you need measurements, because your eyes can't tell you what your monitor is changing.
okay, i digress

Have you considered DIY though? I'm not asking you to design your own speaker (unless you wanna learn ) but if you've got some woodworking skills, I can think of quite a few floorstanding designs that absolutely obliterate what you'd find at a store. Heck, if you're willing to trust the knowledge of some dude on a local hockey forum, I could help design one for you from scratch based on the parts out there. As long as you're willing to do the woodworking.

Honestly, my major recommendation is to start with a 2.0 (or 2.1, sounds like you do have a subwoofer lying around) and then add the surrounds later, rather than starting with 5.1 and adding mains later. Excellent mains are just... more exciting to listen to even if they don't have the novelty factor of surround.

Is that dumb? I have soundbars at the moment and while they are miles better than TV speakers, they aren't that great. I'd really like to have better quality sound.

Yeah soundbars suck.

In general, a typical subwoofer is fine to handle frequencies below 100hz right?

but all loudspeaker drivers have frequency rangers they excel best at based on various properties (their enclosure, their surface area, their voice coil, their motor design etc)

The bigger the better, and sound bars are anything but.

On the receiver end for a sec....if I bought a 7.1 capable receiver, I assume it can be used in a 5.1 configuration?

a 7.1 receiver can be used anywhere from 2.0 to 2.1 to 3.0 to 5.1 to 7.1

For a receiver, I guess it depends on your requirements. I bought my parents this receiver a few months ago for their living room where I setup a basic 2.0 and they've had no trouble using it since I setup the HDMI auto-on features (this did take me a few hours to get right with their TV and their set-top-box though)

https://www.visions.ca/product-detai...143&sku=RXV385

Now if your goal is to have a 7.1 someday you probably have to step up to this one:

https://www.visions.ca/product-detai...=143&sku=RXV6A

or this one:

https://www.visions.ca/product-detai...3&sku=AVRS960H

or whatever Pioneer has. IMO Pioneer, Yamaha, and Denon all make good receivers. Sony is a brand I've heard okay things about but I'm just not sure specific to receivers. I'd probably avoid Onkyo or Emotiva for a few reasons, and then after that you're left with esoteric brands that might be wonderful but require a mortgage.


Also the .1 doesn't mean you need to restrict yourself to one subwoofer. .1 means LFE channel, but there is a strong argument that regardless of which receiver you have, multiple subwoofers spread around the room are by far the way to go indoors as bass frequencies have a ton of cancellations in rooms.


tl;dr

If you are looking at building an HT, I guess a setting your budget would be a start. The main things you'll need are a receiver and at least two speakers.

[Brendone]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

For a receiver, I guess it depends on your requirements. I bought my parents this receiver a few months ago for their living room where I setup a basic 2.0 and they've had no trouble using it since I setup the HDMI auto-on features (this did take me a few hours to get right with their TV and their set-top-box though)

https://www.visions.ca/product-detai...143&sku=RXV385

Now if your goal is to have a 7.1 someday you probably have to step up to this one:

https://www.visions.ca/product-detai...=143&sku=RXV6A

or this one:

https://www.visions.ca/product-detai...3&sku=AVRS960H

Is the release year a big deal these days or do software updates close the gap more than hardware changes? Looks like the AVRS960H is 2020, and the AVRS970H is basically the same, but 2022. Can save quite a bit with 960 on clearance

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Brendone

Is the release year a big deal these days or do software updates close the gap more than hardware changes? Looks like the AVRS960H is 2020, and the AVRS970H is basically the same, but 2022. Can save quite a bit with 960 on clearance

I don't think the release year is a huge difference and it hasn't been for a long time. It's the parts inside/tech specs and/or the the additional or less features in a system. If you think they seem identical to you tech spec and features wise and reviews seem to support this, go with the cheaper one and spend the extra savings elsewhere (ie: decent quality cables, upgraded speakers etc.). But if one specific year has more issues than another, then maybe you weigh the pros and cons with paying more to avoid a specific issue with that specific model (but this is quite uncommon).

There's a reason why there's still quite a few people who will spend a lot of time on searching for stuff from the 60s-80s and restore them vs buying brand new. Sound production at all levels hasn't really changed much. It's just getting cheaper with the occasional additional bells and whistles added in (more input/output options for the price point and Bluetooth/Aux etc.)

Some people hate newer systems, especially ones with Bluetooth because they think that BT can interfere with other stuff or the packing of unnecessary stuff they won't use will cause the system to overheat and not always perform to their desire etc. Others want the latest and greatest and even if they can't tell the difference, maybe someone they know can.

Some of this is placebo effect and/or have no basis in objective measurements. Even if there are differences/issues in lower quality, if you yourself can't tell the difference it likely doesn't matter.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Brendone

Is the release year a big deal these days or do software updates close the gap more than hardware changes? Looks like the AVRS960H is 2020, and the AVRS970H is basically the same, but 2022. Can save quite a bit with 960 on clearance

The biggest "feature" added in the last few years is support for HDMI 2.1 so you can do 4K @ 120fps (40 GBPS)

A bit of a niche use case (gaming in 4K with a VRR capable device like a PS5 or PC) but there are still probably workarounds for that one too (connect your device directly to the TV, then use the ARC to send the sound down to the receiver? I've never tried it though)

[Hemi-Cuda]

Can anyone recommend a good replacement remote for a Sony Bravia TV? The volume up and left arrow buttons quit working all of a sudden on mine, and I can't find anywhere to buy an actual Sony replacement remote. All I find on Amazon are cheap chinese ripoffs with wildly varying reviews

[Brendone]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Can anyone recommend a good replacement remote for a Sony Bravia TV? The volume up and left arrow buttons quit working all of a sudden on mine, and I can't find anywhere to buy an actual Sony replacement remote. All I find on Amazon are cheap chinese ripoffs with wildly varying reviews

I’ve been pretty happy with my Logitech remotes. Pretty easy to program multiple devices

[photon]

No real ones on eBay?

Logitech remotes were great (though I didn't like you had to create an account to use it) but are discontinued. But could be lots of used ones out there.

I've seen SofaBaton talked about, there's a couple on this list: https://www.universalremotereviews.c...-alternatives/

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Can anyone recommend a good replacement remote for a Sony Bravia TV? The volume up and left arrow buttons quit working all of a sudden on mine, and I can't find anywhere to buy an actual Sony replacement remote. All I find on Amazon are cheap chinese ripoffs with wildly varying reviews

Does the TV not support remote via app on your phone or tablet?

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Does the TV not support remote via app on your phone or tablet?

It does, but doesn't help my kids when they want to watch

[chemgear]

A cheap remote like the one that comes with a firestick should work shouldn't it?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Can anyone recommend a good replacement remote for a Sony Bravia TV? The volume up and left arrow buttons quit working all of a sudden on mine, and I can't find anywhere to buy an actual Sony replacement remote. All I find on Amazon are cheap chinese ripoffs with wildly varying reviews

One for All seems to a popular brand with electronics stores. Maybe just drop by London Drugs or Visions and ask about it from a sales rep?

[Hemi-Cuda]

I ended up going with one of the cheap chinese ones on Amazon that looked the closest to the original Sony remote, and I was pleasantly surprised. IR remote functions worked right out of the box, it paired as a bluetooth remote very quickly, and the buttons aren't total trash. Course as soon as I had it setup the original remote started working just fine again, so I guess the new one sits in a cupboard until the original ####s the bed again

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0C...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[afc wimbledon]

Just a heads up, Canuckaudiomart is a great source for decent 2nd hand audio, nice set of Kef 104/2's in there for 800 right now

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I ended up going with one of the cheap chinese ones on Amazon that looked the closest to the original Sony remote, and I was pleasantly surprised. IR remote functions worked right out of the box, it paired as a bluetooth remote very quickly, and the buttons aren't total trash. Course as soon as I had it setup the original remote started working just fine again, so I guess the new one sits in a cupboard until the original ####s the bed again

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0C...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Sounds like an employee who slacks off and suddenly works hard when their job is on the line.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Just a heads up, Canuckaudiomart is a great source for decent 2nd hand audio, nice set of Kef 104/2's in there for 800 right now

I forgot that site existed. Often lots of reasonable deals to be found there.