Pretty good episode but they really stepped down the intensity this week, which I expected because the last couple of weeks have been non stop. Some interesting developments.
Apparently Shield is not on the side of angels here, they were enhancing dangerous psychopaths with un natural abilities. We didn't see Graviton this week, but have they enhanced him too.
Melinda May walks away, kind of funny for somebody that's so duty born, I loved seeing her mother show up.
Skye pretty smart that she figured out one of the oldest pieces of tradescraft out there, I was sad to see Patton Oswald die, he did a great job in his limited time.
Loved some of the lie detector questions, "What's in the box".
Whedon brings in a old Angel friend in the stunning Amy Acker, I didn't even recognize her at first until she was lying on her back, heyyooo.
Fitz and Simmons completely conflicted.
Coulson was a bit of a mess this week.
I don't think there's any doubt that Ward is hydra, He killed the head of a secret Shield base, and tried to pull a seduction number on Skye, and kidnapped her basically.
Loved that they asked about Pierce and Project Oversight.
Maria Hill makes an appearance next week, Samuel L Jackson the week after.
This show has really upped its game from a slow start.
I'm throwing caution out of the window! Winter Soldier has been out for two weeks now. The previous page of comments should be warning enough about Cap spoilers.
I wonder if there's any more to the legacy soldiers that they mentioned. Tripp's granddad battled Hydra in WWII. With May being around 50, her mom could potentially be in the late 70s early 80s. She may have been involved in some post-war capacity as well.
I always enjoy the whole spy vs. spy angle, so the Skye/Ward thing is gonna be fun.
I saw Amy Acker's names in the opening credits, so that really wasn't a surprise. Seems like she's being written in to have some kind of recurring role though, which is never a bad thing for ol' Fred.
Admittedly it's been nice that they did something radical. IMO, they just didn't pull it off very well. Personally I've been gradually falling off the bandwagon during the last three episodes.
Suddenly Ward is a superinfiltrator, a master seducer and a master actor (on top of being a superfighter and god knows what else), capable of creating completely fake emotional scenes convincing enough to fool even the most trained and paranoid of people, not to mention able to fool lie detectors and agents specifically trained to uncover people like him? I'm just not buying into any of that. It really doesn't help that the writers put all this load on Brett Dalton, who is easily the worst actor in the series, barely capable of portraying the very simple version of agent Ward we had previously.
I really hope they just kill Ward pretty soon, because every time there's a Ward scene right now I'm just waiting for it to end. I'm sure that's a complete non-starter however, he seems to have become the writer's favourite.
Oh, and suddenly superparanoid Victoria Hand took stupid pills and completely OOC endulges the extremely suspicious whim of Ward right in the middle of a crisis, bad enough to get herself killed? WTF that made absolutely no sense, plus killed off a perfectly good character for no good reason. (Although I'm sure she's actually just locked up in a Hydra facility somewhere.)
Suddenly Cavalry turns into a superpassive moper who just wants the love and attention of Coulson? *handpalm* Don't even get me started on that one.
Suddenly Shield guards are complete cannon fodder (Fridge, Hub), when before they were actually a force to be reckoned with? (Tahiti). Not too bad in itself, but with all the other overly convenient stuff... I mean the Fridge had a reputation, it was supposed to be something special. Then they just raid it as if it was nothing? It's like the writers don't care at all about the lore they've worked to create.
Suddenly millionaire playboy entrepreneur Ian Quinn is all okay about having lost his companies, fortunes and fame, just because he gets this one MacGuffin? Come on, how is that supposed to make even remote sense?
It's like they suddenly rewrote half the characters.
And really the whole "Hydra has been hiding inside Shield this whole time" thing was more stupid than anything else. I mean yeah, it's a fantasy series, it doesn't have to make sense as such. But I really haven't been getting that much out of it.
Mostly I've felt the situation of Shield is constantly out of touch with how the world has been portrayed previously. I'm just so not buying into any of that stuff and I'm really hoping they'll settle at some situation pretty soon and get on with telling stories with less twists and more actually sensible motivations.
Really liked Acker and Oswald though, and there's still some good stuff to keep me watching at least until the season ends. We'll see how it goes from there.
Admittedly it's been nice that they did something radical. IMO, they just didn't pull it off very well. Personally I've been gradually falling off the bandwagon during the last three episodes.
Suddenly Ward is a superinfiltrator, a master seducer and a master actor (on top of being a superfighter and god knows what else), capable of creating completely fake emotional scenes convincing enough to fool even the most trained and paranoid of people, not to mention able to fool lie detectors and agents specifically trained to uncover people like him? I'm just not buying into any of that. It really doesn't help that the writers put all this load on Brett Dalton, who is easily the worst actor in the series, barely capable of portraying the very simple version of agent Ward we had previously.
He didn't fool the lie detector test though, he was off the charts. Patton asked a really stupid question that Ward could answer truthfully. He was clearly a master of all of this because he infiltrated and sucked in the unit from the very smart. He had no emotional attachment to them from the beginning. He was sent to get in with Coulson from the very start.
Now if they do something stupid like Sky redeems him then I'll be let down, but, but I can't see a redemption because he's killed actually characters and not just cannon fodder. I just don't see any way that he ends up anything other then in the Fridge or dead at the end of the year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
I really hope they just kill Ward pretty soon, because every time there's a Ward scene right now I'm just waiting for it to end. I'm sure that's a complete non-starter however, he seems to have become the writer's favourite.
If he turns out as a villian which it seems to be, I doubt that they kill him. He's a lot like Shaw in Chuck who was killed twice and kept coming back for vengence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Oh, and suddenly superparanoid Victoria Hand took stupid pills and completely OOC endulges the extremely suspicious whim of Ward right in the middle of a crisis, bad enough to get herself killed? WTF that made absolutely no sense, plus killed off a perfectly good character for no good reason. (Although I'm sure she's actually just locked up in a Hydra facility somewhere.)
She thought she had the Clairvoyant, Ward was a level 8 and had shown himself to be trustworthy, she got stupid basically, but I believe she's dead [spoiler]Saffron Barrows doesn't have any more appearances listed for Shield[/quote]. Plus they had to have Ward kill someone meaningful and she fit the bill. I liked the shock value of it, that your never safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Suddenly Cavalry turns into a superpassive moper who just wants the love and attention of Coulson? *handpalm* Don't even get me started on that one.
Yeah that is kind of silly writing, I get it, but its too over the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Suddenly Shield guards are complete cannon fodder (Fridge, Hub), when before they were actually a force to be reckoned with? (Tahiti). Not too bad in itself, but with all the other overly convenient stuff... I mean the Fridge had a reputation, it was supposed to be something special. Then they just raid it as if it was nothing? It's like the writers don't care at all about the lore they've worked to create.
Most of Shields leadership has been cleared out, you've got two level 8 operatives going against the junior varsity, and beyond that, they basically got inside by convincing the staff that they were good guys, then back shot them. It does make sense to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Suddenly millionaire playboy entrepreneur Ian Quinn is all okay about having lost his companies, fortunes and fame, just because he gets this one MacGuffin? Come on, how is that supposed to make even remote sense?
That was a pretty significant mcguffin. Who needs fame and fortune when you have the ability to impose a new world order and your part of that new world order and you have access to untouchable tech and artifacts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
And really the whole "Hydra has been hiding inside Shield this whole time" thing was more stupid than anything else. I mean yeah, it's a fantasy series, it doesn't have to make sense as such. But I really haven't been getting that much out of it.
Why wouldn't it make sense, Hydra wasn't destroyed at the end of Captain America 1, Red Skill was gone. Armin Zola was basically recruiting into Shield and created the Algorithms that because the Clairvoyant iirc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Mostly I've felt the situation of Shield is constantly out of touch with how the world has been portrayed previously. I'm just so not buying into any of that stuff and I'm really hoping they'll settle at some situation pretty soon and get on with telling stories with less twists and more actually sensible motivations.
I'm enjoying the twists and turns, there have been a lot of enjoyable holy crap moments between this and Winter Soldier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Really liked Acker and Oswald though, and there's still some good stuff to keep me watching at least until the season ends. We'll see how it goes from there.
Patton was great, he was onto Ward until he asked the one question that Ward could answer with the truth. That's why you don't ask open ended questions with Lie Detectors.
Acker is always hot. Even when she was scarred up in Dollhouse.
He didn't fool the lie detector test though, he was off the charts. Patton asked a really stupid question that Ward could answer truthfully. He was clearly a master of all of this because he infiltrated and sucked in the unit from the very smart. He had no emotional attachment to them from the beginning. He was sent to get in with Coulson from the very start.
I know there's technically a reason for it. It's just that Ward is now essentially super at everything without a really good reason for it. That's what makes me groan. I'm not buying the character anymore. Plus the fact that the actor is SO BAD. As long as he was playing this kind of awkward socially inept guy, it was okay. But now that he's supposed to be a super infiltrator? Just doesn't work for me.
Quote:
If he turns out as a villian which it seems to be, I doubt that they kill him. He's a lot like Shaw in Chuck who was killed twice and kept coming back for vengence
Yeah. I hope they at least fade him out for a bit. But I can totally see him being this übersuper evil agent who will keep bugging our heroes at least for another season or two, after which there's a big showdown where he dies, after he has redeemed himself somewhat. Or something like that.
Quote:
Most of Shields leadership has been cleared out, you've got two level 8 operatives going against the junior varsity, and beyond that, they basically got inside by convincing the staff that they were good guys, then back shot them. It does make sense to me.
Before the last episodes I felt it was well established lore that Shield guards a) are really strict with protocol b) have no qualms about shooting at other Shield agents if that's their orders. And that's under normal circumstances. The Fridge guards being ready to not just let them inside but immediately turn their backs on them seemed off to me.
Just compare those guys with the guards in the Tahiti episode. Tahiti guards seemed like actual guards, who actually stuck with their protocols. Plus they were actually genuinely dangerous (for a couple of unnamed mooks). It was cool and unusual.
I would have really appreciated if they had stuck with that tone and put some effort into making the Fridge security look more serious. It's a small thing, but it just again added to my feeling that everything has been kind of off lately.
(For example, have them let Ward in but try immediately disarm him. Ward could have done his supersoldier thing and we'd be well within established bounds. There was no need to make the guards stupid.)
Quote:
That was a pretty significant mcguffin. Who needs fame and fortune when you have the ability to impose a new world order and your part of that new world order and you have access to untouchable tech and artifacts.
Again, it's not so much what happened that bothered me, but the way it was written. Quinn was just too quick to be happy about the turn of events. What I like about Quinn is that he's not an insane evil mastermind type, rather just someone with a lot of money, little morals and a lot of arrogance. His first rant seemed like Quinn. Completely forgetting his problems didn't seem like Quinn, to me at least.
Quote:
Why wouldn't it make sense, Hydra wasn't destroyed at the end of Captain America 1, Red Skill was gone. Armin Zola was basically recruiting into Shield and created the Algorithms that because the Clairvoyant iirc.
An organization with completely opposite goals hiding within another organization that's specifically set up to find the kind of organizations that's hiding inside it? And it goes on for decades without anyone catching on? It's rather fantastic even on the Marvel scale if you ask me
Quote:
Patton was great, he was onto Ward until he asked the one question that Ward could answer with the truth. That's why you don't ask open ended questions with Lie Detectors.
Patton had to be trained to use that thing, so why the heck would he do something that stupid? Why even write a super lie detector into the series and then at the very first instance have it fail at the one thing it was supposed to do? Technology has generally been pretty powerful in this series, having it fail in such a crucial was just one more thing that was just off for me.
Again, they could have written it better. Have Patton relax a bit after the Skye question, but not let up completely. Then have Ward use his injuries as an excuse to get out of it. Then have Ward kill Patton. Everything is the same, except we don't need to force Patton to be stupid and the lie detector be a worthless piece of crap.
To me it seemed like they just really really wanted a scene where Ward beats a lie detector by telling them he's there for Skye, even if everything else about the scene is stupid.
That line of thought generally describes my problems with watching the series lately. The story is just such a mess right now IMO, and there are so many scenes that seem to conflict with what has been established. I'm just constantly being pulled out of it.
It's not the kind of series that stands up to logic very well, which is why creating and sticking with the lore and characters is important. Lose that coherence, and you lose me.
Quote:
Acker is always hot. Even when she was scarred up in Dollhouse.
Admittedly it's been nice that they did something radical. IMO, they just didn't pull it off very well. Personally I've been gradually falling off the bandwagon during the last three episodes.
Suddenly Ward is a superinfiltrator, a master seducer and a master actor (on top of being a superfighter and god knows what else), capable of creating completely fake emotional scenes convincing enough to fool even the most trained and paranoid of people, not to mention able to fool lie detectors and agents specifically trained to uncover people like him? I'm just not buying into any of that. It really doesn't help that the writers put all this load on Brett Dalton, who is easily the worst actor in the series, barely capable of portraying the very simple version of agent Ward we had previously.
I really hope they just kill Ward pretty soon, because every time there's a Ward scene right now I'm just waiting for it to end. I'm sure that's a complete non-starter however, he seems to have become the writer's favourite.
Oh, and suddenly superparanoid Victoria Hand took stupid pills and completely OOC endulges the extremely suspicious whim of Ward right in the middle of a crisis, bad enough to get herself killed? WTF that made absolutely no sense, plus killed off a perfectly good character for no good reason. (Although I'm sure she's actually just locked up in a Hydra facility somewhere.)
Suddenly Cavalry turns into a superpassive moper who just wants the love and attention of Coulson? *handpalm* Don't even get me started on that one.
Suddenly Shield guards are complete cannon fodder (Fridge, Hub), when before they were actually a force to be reckoned with? (Tahiti). Not too bad in itself, but with all the other overly convenient stuff... I mean the Fridge had a reputation, it was supposed to be something special. Then they just raid it as if it was nothing? It's like the writers don't care at all about the lore they've worked to create.
Suddenly millionaire playboy entrepreneur Ian Quinn is all okay about having lost his companies, fortunes and fame, just because he gets this one MacGuffin? Come on, how is that supposed to make even remote sense?
It's like they suddenly rewrote half the characters.
And really the whole "Hydra has been hiding inside Shield this whole time" thing was more stupid than anything else. I mean yeah, it's a fantasy series, it doesn't have to make sense as such. But I really haven't been getting that much out of it.
Mostly I've felt the situation of Shield is constantly out of touch with how the world has been portrayed previously. I'm just so not buying into any of that stuff and I'm really hoping they'll settle at some situation pretty soon and get on with telling stories with less twists and more actually sensible motivations.
Really liked Acker and Oswald though, and there's still some good stuff to keep me watching at least until the season ends. We'll see how it goes from there.
Keep in mind that Joss didn't really get involved in the writing until the second half of the show. His brother Jedd and Maurissa Tancharoen did the first half with guest writers writing through the whole series. Joss got more involved after reading the first episodes but it was too late to change much if anything major. Hence the later 7 episodes were far superior the the first 12. There has to be some forgiveness to get the story moving at the pace it's going now. The show is going to be phenomenal next season.
Yeah Ward is a horrible actor, they should have just killed him off with Tripp(?) he seems like a much better actor. The series is starting to get good, almost gave up on it. Glad it's gotten a lot better.
I dont know why anyone would call out any of the ridiculousness of the show and at times weak story and plot holes.
Have any of you read comics? This is a staple. Plot holes you could run the Helicarrier through. This is essentially comics made TV. I expected nothing less or more, for that matter.
Pretty good episode but they really stepped down the intensity this week, which I expected because the last couple of weeks have been non stop. Some interesting developments.
Apparently Shield is not on the side of angels here, they were enhancing dangerous psychopaths with un natural abilities. We didn't see Graviton this week, but have they enhanced him too.
Melinda May walks away, kind of funny for somebody that's so duty born, I loved seeing her mother show up.
Skye pretty smart that she figured out one of the oldest pieces of tradescraft out there, I was sad to see Patton Oswald die, he did a great job in his limited time.
Loved some of the lie detector questions, "What's in the box".
Whedon brings in a old Angel friend in the stunning Amy Acker, I didn't even recognize her at first until she was lying on her back, heyyooo.
Fitz and Simmons completely conflicted.
Coulson was a bit of a mess this week.
I don't think there's any doubt that Ward is hydra, He killed the head of a secret Shield base, and tried to pull a seduction number on Skye, and kidnapped her basically.
Loved that they asked about Pierce and Project Oversight.
Maria Hill makes an appearance next week, Samuel L Jackson the week after.
This show has really upped its game from a slow start.
Finally. Is it not about time? I keep feeling that it is evident that the show is on a tight budget because of this. It feels like it has been building up to this for a looong time, but it never happens. Maybe it does have a decent budget, or maybe it's just the writing, but I feel it has been stalling for this.
For someone with little knowledge about the cast, production, and cost breakdown, it feels as if it is dragging this on for financial concerns from an uneducated consumer POV.
I was pretty much convinced that they would never bring him on for an appearance.
With regards to the lie detector, I think those complaining about it are relying on some false assumptions:
1) It's actually a super unbeatable lie detector. How do we know this? Because Patton said so to the people he was about to interrogate? Everything he said it does has to do with people's physical reactions to lying. By making them nervous about being caught, he's helping the machine out. Even when they asked if it worked, he said Fury wanted a machine that Romanoff couldn't beat, but then didn't actually know if it worked.
2) Ward beat the lie detector. Actually, he didn't. Right from the start, Patton noted that his baseline was screwy due to the pain he had inflicted on himself. That in itself makes the test unreliable, yet it still alerted Patton every time he lied. That lie detector worked perfectly
3) Patton just accepted the Skye answer and that was the end of it. They clearly showed that he still didn't trust any of them and the lanyards were a ploy to get trackers on them. Asking more questions in a test he has already identified as unreliable would just waste his time and make Ward suspicious if he was a spy. Patton took the easy out to set Ward's mind at ease and kept tabs on him.
Naturally, that will lead to complaints that:
4) If he didn't trust him, why did he let Ward in on what they were doing. But he couldn't exactly keep naive, trusting Skye from blurting everything out to her crush when he walked into the room. Patton was keeping such close watch on what Ward was doing that he gave away his trick to Skye.
5) Patton let Ward corner and kill him. Which is true, and fair. But what else could he do? He has no chance in any combat situation, but isn't totally sure that Ward is a plant, so all he can really do is pretend to trust him and wait for Ward to slip up. Being alone with Ward and Skye makes it that much harder to protect himself
and
6) Why not just kill Ward for being suspicious? Because the rest of his team is there, and not likely to be happy about that without concrete proof of Ward's complicity.
The lie detector did what it was supposed to: it gave Patton an idea of who to distrust and it let him plant the tracking lanyards on them.
The Following User Says Thank You to Superfraggle For This Useful Post:
Finally. Is it not about time? I keep feeling that it is evident that the show is on a tight budget because of this. It feels like it has been building up to this for a looong time, but it never happens. Maybe it does have a decent budget, or maybe it's just the writing, but I feel it has been stalling for this.
For someone with little knowledge about the cast, production, and cost breakdown, it feels as if it is dragging this on for financial concerns from an uneducated consumer POV.
I was pretty much convinced that they would never bring him on for an appearance.
IIRC SLJ made an appearance earlier in the season.
Indeed he did. At the end of one of the episodes. I think episode 3? In any case the bus was damaged, and Coulson called in a repair team, in which Fury tagged along to rag on Coulson.
__________________
The Following User Says Thank You to Teh_Bandwagoner For This Useful Post:
With regards to the lie detector, I think those complaining about it are relying on some false assumptions:
1) It's actually a super unbeatable lie detector. How do we know this? Because Patton said so to the people he was about to interrogate? Everything he said it does has to do with people's physical reactions to lying. By making them nervous about being caught, he's helping the machine out. Even when they asked if it worked, he said Fury wanted a machine that Romanoff couldn't beat, but then didn't actually know if it worked.
2) Ward beat the lie detector. Actually, he didn't. Right from the start, Patton noted that his baseline was screwy due to the pain he had inflicted on himself. That in itself makes the test unreliable, yet it still alerted Patton every time he lied. That lie detector worked perfectly
3) Patton just accepted the Skye answer and that was the end of it. They clearly showed that he still didn't trust any of them and the lanyards were a ploy to get trackers on them. Asking more questions in a test he has already identified as unreliable would just waste his time and make Ward suspicious if he was a spy. Patton took the easy out to set Ward's mind at ease and kept tabs on him.
Not much point in arguing about what things are, they're what ever the makers want them to be. It's a completely fictional world.
I'm not saying there's something wrong with you if you've liked with how the series has been going. It's just that I don't, and I felt like talking about why. Partially I was curious to hear if anyone else has been feeling the same.
To sum it up, I feel that the series has lately seriously failed to stick to it's own established lore and has had it's characters acting too much according to plot needs with too little eye to their already established traits and personalities. Which is a problem for me because when that happens, I stop believing in the world and the characters, and after that it's just really hard to care about what happens.
Now, if that's because Joss Whedon has taken over the series now (didn't know that and don't really care much one way or the other), then I have to say I'm once again less than impressed with his writing.
I PVR the Daily Show and Colbert Report. Caught this "Hail Hydra" on the Colbert Report opening. It was right after they emerged and I didn't see it on a later opening. This isn't my picture, just one I dug up on Google.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to The Coppernian One For This Useful Post:
It bugged me that Patton focused on the why did you comeback question and not the much simpler are you a member of Hydra? He never made Ward answer it.
But other than the lie detector problem I have been okay with the believability of the plot and them sticking to the rules of the universe they created.
Another very good episode last night with Agent Hill entering into the mix.
We now know
Spoiler!
Deathlok might not have been a willing victim before, but he's a pretty willing villain now. He doesn't believe that Shield can protect his son, He also decidedly dislikes Ward.
Ward isn't fully trusted by Garrett when it comes to Sky,
Coulson was in charge of the re-animation project, they didn't just wipe out his memory of Tahiti, they pretty much probably took away years of his life.
There's no redeeming Ward, we've talked about it, its true, I love the fact that even when he tries to be sincere, he comes across as very insincere.
The second straight episode with no Garrett.
Next week we get to see the true story of Wards life.
I have a feeling that this story line isn't going to end this season. there are too many Hydra things happening in the background.
Yes I know the car escape looked incredibly cheesy. But I laughed at the $20.00 thing
another solid episode last night leading up to the season ending fight for the world basically.
Spoiler!
We saw Ward's past and it wasn't a good one, the kid was a bit of a psycho path. Garrett spotted a vulnerable angry but skilled kid and put the recruit on him.
Hydra is all about survival, he left the kid in the woods for 6 months, and then bought taco's
Very little about the current Deathlok this week, But Garrett is the Deathlok model 1.
He was abandoned by Shield and swore he would never trust anyone again.
Loved the howling commando kit, especially the laser cigarette.
Even Garrett thinks Raina is creepy and she's all about the change, we learned that Skye's parents were monsters that destroyed a village.
Ward couldn't kill the dog, but saving Fritz and Simmon's would get him beyond that sign of weakness, so he dropped them out of the Bus.
I loved the file transfer line.
Ward isn't brainwashed or being Blackmailed, he's basically a psychopath on a mission.
Garrett is now pretty much a super being.
Nick Fury on the way.
Great ending to the season
Quinn is selling SuperSoldiers to the military. No sign of Graviton yet, but you know they're pulling out the stops for next season
Very little from Ming and Coulson this week, even Triplett was largely background.
I thought he did kill the dog. He let him go before hand, but didn't he shoot him with the sniper after?
I like Bill Paxton on the show. I hope he sticks around beyond this season, though gut says he's offed in the season finale.
Ward's acting is growing on me.
Spoiler!
He actually seems to play the hidden psycho thing pretty good. It really feels like he's battling his good-guy identity inside. Actually I was reading an article a while back that the writers didn't even tell him he was Hydra for the first half of filming.
Can't wait for Fury to drop in and just steal the show!
__________________
Last edited by Teh_Bandwagoner; 05-07-2014 at 11:29 AM.
The Following User Says Thank You to Teh_Bandwagoner For This Useful Post:
