Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

At this point I don’t know how anyone could argue that Bennett is what we thought or hoped he would be. It’s not too late, but it sure isn’t encouraging and like somebody else mentioned awhile ago, the Flames need this guy to emerge in order to be a true contender.

I think some people are arguing that he is still young at 21, not all development curves are equal, and he has not had an extended period the past 2 years with steady and quality linemates. He had a crap coach for the two years his development “stalled”.

Some people would like to see him put in circumstances that will allow the Flames to get the most out of him.

Hopefully this Peters is a better coach than the last guy.

[Mr.Coffee]

And that’s fair and all but let’s not pretend like he’s been anything but disappointing to date.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

At this point I don’t know how anyone could argue that Bennett is what we thought or hoped he would be. It’s not too late, but it sure isn’t encouraging and like somebody else mentioned awhile ago, the Flames need this guy to emerge in order to be a true contender.

Is anyone actually saying this?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Is anyone actually saying this?

Not a single person that I have read. There are several apologists out there though, probably about equal in number to those who think he’ll amount to not much more than what he has been last 2 years.

[Macindoc]

I don't think it's an overstatement to say that a big step forward for Bennett this year is essential for both the player and the team. Can he take that step forward with better coaching (or will the team have better coaching, for that matter), better linemates (still searching for those), physical development, and maturation? Only time will tell.

Regardless, considering how last season went, the only sure thing is that he will be better than anyone we can get in return for him in a trade, and he at least still has the potential to improve. Remember, buy low, and sell high. It's the GMs who remember this simple rule who have long-term success.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

And that’s fair and all but let’s not pretend like he’s been anything but disappointing to date.

Sure, disappointing but with a lot of asterisks and room to be put in a proper position to succeed.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Even Strength Line Combinations - ENTIRE SEASON -
(Not 1 of these line combo's is as bad as sames HIGHEST)
76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4%BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

WHERE IS THE 4th LINE? The above are the pairings he played last season, all stats from every game. Sure they may have called it a "4th line" in a newspaper clipping but do any of the guys above look like 4th liners when compared to what the flames hail as 4th liners? Brouwer, Hathaway, Chiasson, Lazar, Stajan etc??

Matthew's is a generational hyped player, there is no comparable. I would bet $ on Sam putting up 50pts if he played along side Matthew's for 80% of his first 2 seasons including top line PP time on a PP with success.

You are comparing the wrong players. In their respective draft years, Bennett was much closer to Matthews than Nylander.
Bennett was supposed to be what Matthews is on his line. A guy who makes his line mates better. Matthews is the reason why Hyman and Nylander are doing as well as they are.

Furthermore, if you go back to the Leaf's trio's rookie season 16/17, you had:
Hyman - Matthews - Nylander

Prior to that season, that line had a combined 38NHL games between them. You are using stats of what that line is now and not when they first started.
In his rookie season, Matthews was flanked by a largely unknown college FA and an #8OA from a few years prior who was questionable if he could translate over a full season.

People keep blaming the situations Bennett was put into, but I would say that the situations both him and Matthews started in weren't too dissimilar and if anything, Bennett had more proven NHL talent to play with.
As for the talent disparity, Bennett was ranked #1 at various points during his draft year by a number of pretty reputable websites. He might not have been generational, but he was projected to be pretty damn close.

The fact of the matter is that Bennett was given no worse opportunities than players on his own team (Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk or even Ferland). Only difference is that those guys did something with their chances, whereas Bennett squandered his.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ Quibbling about Marner or Matthews as a comparable is one thing. Bennett played a lot with Hathaway this year, who might or might not have had a stick, as frankly it didn’t matter.

And the line with healthy Jagr was very good

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

This is the reason why most of us were irate with the way GG was utilizing Brouwer. GG was gifting PP and top6 minutes to Brouwer when he had done nothing to prove he deserved it.

Which brings us back to the issue of, why should we gift Bennett favorable situations when he's done nothing to prove he deserves it either?

There was lots of legitimate reasons to dislike GG. Be good if you went with legitimate ones instead of made up lies and stupidities.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I will bow out with this nuggett.

Nail Yakupov at age 21....192 games played. 88 pts accumulated.

Sam Bennett at age 21....241 games played. 89 pts accumulated.

3 years in... the CP collective would have, rightfully, ridiculed Oiler fans for suggesting it was only linemates or that Yakupov was just fine and going to break out any minute.

Mind boggling.

Yikes, that's bad.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

There was lots of legitimate reasons to dislike GG. Be good if you went with legitimate ones instead of made up lies and stupidities.

Huh? Wtf are you talking about. Maybe I should have said, Brouwer's utilization was ONE of the reasons why there was so much hate for GG, but it is definitely not made up. Where do you think the term "Brouwerplay" came from

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sure, disappointing but with a lot of asterisks and room to be put in a proper position to succeed.

Bennett had plenty of chances to succeed though. He was given a chance to center the 3rd line with Jagr and Versteeg to start the season. That didn't work. He went nearly 20 games without a point.

He moves to wing and gets a decent center with Jankowski. I agree that Hathaway was bad but are Brouwer and Lazar better options? Remember Jagr left team and Versteeg was hurt.

Where does Bennett really play though besides 3rd line? Ferland was a better choice on 1st line. 3M line as is is better. Frolik wasn't the same after injury but Bennett didn't play well enough to make that move.

He's now a 3rd line winger with Jankowski and hopefully he gets someone like Mangiapane or Versteeg instead of Hathaway.

[pepper24]

Maybe he gets some powerplay time over Brouwer but tough to reward his bad start. Versteeg's injury really hurt the PP.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Maybe he gets some Brouwerplay time over Brouwer but tough to reward his bad start. Versteeg's injury really hurt the pp.

fyp.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by transplant99

LOL..ya, you really did. Twice as a matter of fact.

So, since I didn't explicitly mention draft position in every single sentence, I ignored the point? That's not how language works.

And yes, BP is and has been a complete failure for where he was drafted. Not sure how that is even debateable. You think that those teas that drafted those guys see it ANY other way?

No, he is not a complete failure for where he was drafted. A complete failure at that level is a guy who bombs out of the league in short order, as I showed by multiple examples. Bennett is on roughly the level of Pouliot. Ask the Wild if they think Pouliot was a complete failure. They are more likely to say that the failure was trading him for Latendresse, who only gave them one decent season and was soon out of the league.

If you want to lower the bar and suggest other players drafted in the same spot were/are worse than Bennett, OK fill your boots. Doesn't change how inconsequential he has been thus far as a Flame.

I am not suggesting that they were worse than Bennett. I am flat out stating it as a fact. I am saying that Bennett is a disappointment, like Pouliot, not a failure, like Brendl or Bonsignore. He is and will continue to be a useful NHLer. The fact that he isn't what you wanted is your problem, not his.

And you got me...I did and do expect WAY more from the 4th overall than anything he has provided 3 years into his pro playing career, particularly after getting to spend the entire first year with the club rehabbing. Thats a prime opportunity to learn...he didn't.

You never get a prime opportunity to learn to play better hockey by spending a year not playing.

It's becoming very clear that criticism based on his existing resume is now off limits around here, and I simply dont get it.

Oh, bull####. What is ‘off limits’ is saying that he is a complete failure and worth nothing to the team, and that no other opinion is even possible. That will get you called out, fast – which is what I did.

I will bow out with this nuggett.

Nail Yakupov at age 21....192 games played. 88 pts accumulated.

Sam Bennett at age 21....241 games played. 89 pts accumulated.

Nail Yakupov was strictly a one-dimensional player, dumb as a bag of hammers, and when he wasn't scoring he brought nothing at all. But hey, if you want to judge a player entirely by his point production and ignore every other area of the game, as you like to say, fill your boots.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Bennett had plenty of chances to succeed though. He was given a chance to center the 3rd line with Jagr and Versteeg to start the season. That didn't work.

"didn't work".

Actually, that line only spent a grande total of 16.38 minutes together in which they posted a rel CF% of +13.56% and rel xGF% of +8.92...while dragging around an awful Matt Bartkowski. The only thing that happened was they had an on-ice shooting percentage of 0% - something that happens in small sample sizes. This was when Hamonic, too, was struggling to find his footing on the team. And Jagr was rusty(and even the year before last year, Jagr's shooting percentage had fallen off the map). And Versteeg was making questionable giveaways every game. As a line they were break-even in goals and waiting for some bounces given they had the advantage in chances.

If you give me that line, except with Versteeg of 2016-17 and Jagr of 2015-16, I'd argue they'd be one of the premier lines in the NHL because they actually fed off each other exceptionally. Bennett did just about everything right with those two linemates. That said if I were making a line for Bennett I would give him speedier wingers as he has such a great stretch pass.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

"didn't work".

Actually, that line only spent a grande total of 16.38 minutes together in which they posted a rel CF% of +13.56% and rel xGF% of +8.92...while dragging around an awful Matt Bartkowski. The only thing that happened was they had an on-ice shooting percentage of 0% - something that happens in small sample sizes. This was when Hamonic, too, was struggling to find his footing on the team. And Jagr was rusty(and even the year before last year, Jagr's shooting percentage had fallen off the map). And Versteeg was making questionable giveaways every game. As a line they were break-even in goals and waiting for some bounces given they had the advantage in chances.

If you give me that line, except with Versteeg of 2016-17 and Jagr of 2015-16, I'd argue they'd be one of the premier lines in the NHL because they actually fed off each other exceptionally. Bennett did just about everything right with those two linemates. That said if I were making a line for Bennett I would give him speedier wingers as he has such a great stretch pass.

But what if they gave you 2010 Versteeg and 1993 Jagr? Best line in hockey probably.

Sky's the limit!

How many points did Bennett have with that line? I mean, corsi is great and everything, but what about stupid things like goals and assists?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

How many points did Bennett have with that line? I mean, corsi is great and everything, but what about stupid things like goals and assists?

Zero points, because they did not happen to score a goal in the 16 minutes they played together. GranteedEV covered that.

But yeah, you got him good. Clearly every line that goes 16 whole minutes without scoring a goal is a failure and needs to be fired into the sun.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not a single person that I have read. There are several apologists out there though, probably about equal in number to those who think he’ll amount to not much more than what he has been last 2 years.

By apologists do you mean optimists?

People are not crazy to think a guy turning 22 has room to improve. The last 2 seasons make it easy to write off Sam but it is also fairfor people to hope he has more to give as he has shown flashes in the past

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not a single person that I have read. There are several apologists out there though, probably about equal in number to those who think he’ll amount to not much more than what he has been last 2 years.

Definitely, there's quite a spectrum of views on where Bennett might progress to. I just thought that Mr. Coffee's comment was quite the straw man.

I'm certainly disappointed in how Bennett has worked out so far, but holding onto some hope that he can figure out the things he hasn't yet. Not the top-line/number one center I originally hoped for though... a bit of a shame.