Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[ricosuave]

Nenshi hopes to strike arena deal in 2019.

https://www.660citynews.com/2018/12/...lames-in-2019/

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Nenshi hopes to strike arena deal in 2019.

https://www.660citynews.com/2018/12/...lames-in-2019/

'Flames win the cup, the city's third doesn't have to be paid back.'


I think that's a deal the people could get behind.

[chemgear]

I'm not sure what the heck Nenshi is drinking (or eating) but he sure seemed sold on that obvious and outright fraudulent claim of 10 to 1 returns on investment from his Winter Olympics fiasco.

I thought he'd be eating enough beans to fuel a fleet of methane transport trucks by now.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nomic-benefits

'Don't sell me magic beans': Nenshi skeptical of arena's economic benefits

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by chemgear

I'm not sure what the heck Nenshi is drinking (or eating) but he sure seemed sold on that obvious and outright fraudulent claim of 10 to 1 returns on investment from his Winter Olympics fiasco.

I thought he'd be eating enough beans to fuel a fleet of methane transport trucks by now.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nomic-benefits

'Don't sell me magic beans': Nenshi skeptical of arena's economic benefits

Are you saying it's bad that he learned how ineffective the "magic economic bean" argument is?

What he says is true, and it's what would've given the Olympics a fighting chance: don't try to pull one over, lay it out and say "these are the benefits, this is what we're asking for."

He's right. If CSEC want support on this, they have to go in open and honest and wanting to work with the city. That's the way forward.

(also you don't eat magic beans)

[redforever]

Originally Posted by chemgear

I'm not sure what the heck Nenshi is drinking (or eating) but he sure seemed sold on that obvious and outright fraudulent claim of 10 to 1 returns on investment from his Winter Olympics fiasco.

I thought he'd be eating enough beans to fuel a fleet of methane transport trucks by now.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nomic-benefits

'Don't sell me magic beans': Nenshi skeptical of arena's economic benefits

If Nenshi is not on the negotiating committee, why is he making comments like this to the press? I thought negotiations were to be done in private this time around.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by chemgear

I'm not sure what the heck Nenshi is drinking (or eating) but he sure seemed sold on that obvious and outright fraudulent claim of 10 to 1 returns on investment from his Winter Olympics fiasco.

I thought he'd be eating enough beans to fuel a fleet of methane transport trucks by now.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nomic-benefits

'Don't sell me magic beans': Nenshi skeptical of arena's economic benefits

It would be interesting to track the origin and instances of who used terms like 'ROI' being used in that debate. It's certainly semantics, but there is a big difference between claiming a 10 to 1 ROI and a $1 to $10 expense spending ratio (and I believe most comments from officials were careful to make that distinction).

I'll agree that both situations are well into 'magic bean' territory, but it does not mean that the same conclusion must be reached in both cases. I didn't love the Olympic proposal, but reluctantly voted yes because in my consideration of the comprehensive situation, I felt the benefits to myself and the city still outweighed the costs. I think the opposite is true of the current proposal for funding the arena.

Although I thought there would be a greater quantity of unnecessary spending and over-spending related to the Olympic bid, the beneficiaries of both would be more widespread, more local, and more diverse. In other words, 1000 different companies more likely to be locally owned and operated (everything from the guy who rents out radios, the other guy who rents bleachers, the other guy who is a multi-lingual translator, the tour coach operator, various smaller construction firms, etc.) might have gotten overpaid for work that wasn't 100% necessary in a perfect world. This benefits both the owners and employees of these companies...a whole bunch of local people having a bit more money (on which they are also paying taxes), most of which would be spent again in the local economy. The leftovers would have been mostly revitalized versions and some new infrastructure - all of which would have been more accessible to more people, as would the 2 week party.

In the case of the arena, we are more likely talking about PCL or another massive construction firm managing the project. Plenty of jobs for 'employees', and certainly some smaller local firms would be sub-contracted for various items, but the biggest beneficiary would be Murray, who doesn't seem to be doing much local spending or local tax paying these days. The leftovers is a piece of revitalized version of infrastructure that is now slightly less accessible to even fewer people. And no party.

Just like Nenshi, I would reluctantly support buying one set of magic beans (I'll acknowledge that he wasn't as publicly reluctant), while adamantly opposing spending less money on a different set of magic beans.

Originally Posted by redforever

If Nenshi is not on the negotiating committee, why is he making comments like this to the press? I thought negotiations were to be done in private this time around.

He is automatically on pretty much every single committee in the city by virtue of being the mayor. The suggestion was that he should not play much of a role in the direct negotiations.

Regarding privacy:
1. Because he was asked a question. Would you prefer he acted like a federal politician in QP and just spoke a lot of words without saying anything?

2. Privacy was a request of the Flames. They are also requesting a lot of money. The city is under no obligation to comply with either.

3. IIRC, the request for privacy was linked more specifically to sharing specific documents or elements of the negotiation, which I don't think Nenshi violated the spirit of. If the Flames were upset that their ridiculous asks for 'free police', 'free transit', and development veto power were leaked, then perhaps they shouldn't have made them in the first place.

4. Total privacy for a 9 figure discretionary expense is the way things work in Russia. It should not be the case here.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Are you saying it's bad that he learned how ineffective the "magic economic bean" argument is?

What he says is true, and it's what would've given the Olympics a fighting chance: don't try to pull one over, lay it out and say "these are the benefits, this is what we're asking for."

He's right. If CSEC want support on this, they have to go in open and honest and wanting to work with the city. That's the way forward.

(also you don't eat magic beans)

Thanked for pointing out you don’t eat magic beans.

Although they are referred to as the magical fruit in an eating context.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by redforever

If Nenshi is not on the negotiating committee, why is he making comments like this to the press? I thought negotiations were to be done in private this time around.

There isn't a negotiating committee, there's an 'Event Centre Assessment Committee' and the mayor along with most councilors (Chahal, Jones, and DCU the only ones absent) were at the last meeting when CMLC (of which Nenshi is a board member) presented for the Economic Impact methodology and the cost, etc. The mayor can also sit on all committees if they want.



Even if there were a negotiating committee, they still need to present the deal to council for approval, so anybody on council can have their say if they want, whether they approve of a deal or not.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

There isn't a negotiating committee, there's an 'Event Centre Assessment Committee' and the mayor along with most councilors (Chahal, Jones, and DCU the only ones absent) were at the last meeting when CMLC (of which Nenshi is a board member) presented for the Economic Impact methodology and the cost, etc. The mayor can also sit on all committees if they want.



Even if there were a negotiating committee, they still need to present the deal to council for approval, so anybody on council can have their say if they want, whether they approve of a deal or not.

I believe at the last meeting as well, they discussed a sort of terms of reference on the skillset they want for a third party negotiator. Looks like that might be the direction they go.

[sureLoss]

50 year master plan for Victoria Park released. Can see the new arena and no saddledome in new renderings



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ncil-1.4972389

A serious makeover
If you look at this plan, you see this is a massive overhaul of the areas east of Macleod Trail and south of the CP Rail tracks.

It's bordered on the south and east sides by the Elbow River.

This is prime Calgary real estate.

Obviously, a new event centre and the soon-to-be-started, half-billion dollar expansion of the BMO Centre are big pieces of the puzzle.


There's also the new opera centre, which was given $7.5 million in funding in the most recent city budget. Once federal and provincial matching funds are committed to it, that building will rise at the southeast corner of 12th Avenue and Fifth Street S.E.

Calgary's set aside $7.5M for this new $40M opera centre

Those are the showcase buildings. There are also plans for hotels and lots of new condos in decades to come.

The Calgary Municipal Land Corporation, which is overseeing the redevelopment process of the entire area, is also planning for a number of parks and urban plazas between all those shiny new buildings.

The Elbow River will be lined with green space. A linear park will run west from the river between the CPR mainline and 10th Avenue, all the way to the green line station at Fourth Street S.E.

But then look closer at the report, and you find the reference to a "flexible flat space that can be used for at-grade parking and transition into programmed large events such as Comic-Con, Global Petroleum Show and the 10-day Stampede Event."


Flexible flat space. That's where the Saddledome sits today. We had a sneak peak at this idea when the draft report came out. Now, we know.

But wait. Timelines are important here. This document also includes a staging plan.

It details what could happen over the next 50 years. The 'dome remains in the 10-year picture, but then it's erased from the image of the 10-20 year vision.

This is because the old arena would need to stick around long enough for a new arena to be built.

And that's here too.

The new arena
The plan is to take two surface parking lots bounded by 12th and 14th Avenues, between Olympic Way and Fifth Street, for the new arena. (That too was in the earlier draft plan.)

But for the first time, we see that the new arena will just not be a big square box as it has appeared in past versions of the document. Instead, it now has an oval-shaped footprint set diagonally on the two-square-block space north of the Saddledome.


Also, four high-rise towers spring forth from each corner of the space.

We know the Flames have hired an architectural design firm to draw up plans for a possible new arena and some images were released. This new planning document helps fill in some details in the surrounding areas in this multi-year saga.

But the redevelopment plan isn't just a case of "if you build it they will come." The city also has to figure out just how it will get people to a new arena.

[RM14]

I wonder if there is any way they can salvage one of the ends of the Saddledome seating rows, and turn that area into an outdoor concert amphitheater to replace the Coke Stage venue which is in an awful spot and not big enough.

Outdoor concerts in that location would be awesome. And the use of the part of the Saddledome bowl would be neat.

[getbak]

Here's the full 244 page report if anyone is interested in reading it: https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=77003

[RM14]

Anyone guessing what the timeline is for just the arena decision?

If I recall, the next step is that City Council will hear the final economic impact report from one of the firms in a couple weeks.

Then what?

[Robbob]

I recall something about January 19th from watching, but that just might be when they wanted the report to be given to them so they could review it.

[redforever]

Plans have hit a snag.

At the heart of the plan for the area is a new arena, an expanded BMO Convention Centre and Stampede Trail — “an iconic festival street” similar to Stephen Avenue that could be closed to traffic and “function as an urban plaza for special events.”

But Thursday’s meeting saw commission members highly critical of proposed changes to the area redevelopment plan. A chief complaint was that city documents only obliquely referred to a new arena to replace the aging Saddledome, characterizing it as an “event facility.”

“Is there something going on at the city that you don’t want to recognize?” demanded commission member Melvin Foht. “It’s obfuscated. It’s so hidden. Why don’t you just call it what it is? I find it dishonest and disingenuous.”

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...-of-saddledome

[RM14]

How about "the arena which holds events"

[Mr.Coffee]

Lol who is going to live in those towers? What businesses will fill all those?

Like is City counsel aware at all of what’s going on with the economy??

This city is going to be the next Detroit with the way things are going not growing like that.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Lol who is going to live in those towers? What businesses will fill all those?

Like is City counsel aware at all of what’s going on with the economy??

It is a 50 year plan for development. They aren't expecting everything to be built overnight.

[Mr.Coffee]

Well they better pray for a reason for people to come live here other than oil and gas. We can’t fill the towers we already have. 50 years, 100 years, 200 years, you have to have some confidence the city will grow and be viable. Right now there is absolutely zero reason to believe the city is ready for any growth no matter what timeframe.

To me, a plan like that screams just how detached from reality the City Council is. They don’t understand how dire things are here. Calgary is in emergency mode in my mind.

[GGG]

The picture of the layout clearly says event center. We have been using that term for well over a year now. I don’t think it’s trying to hide anything.