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Old 05-25-2018, 02:34 PM   #1041
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Zero points, because they did not happen to score a goal in the 16 minutes they played together. GranteedEV covered that.

But yeah, you got him good. Clearly every line that goes 16 whole minutes without scoring a goal is a failure and needs to be fired into the sun.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either 16 minutes is too small of a sample size to show something or it isn't.

Why does the relative corsi matter in 16 minutes but actual production doesn't?

I'm even partial to the idea that Bennett might not be half bad if he had some decent linemates around him.

He's using his post to disagree with another poster that they did in fact work based on the corsi, and that if Bennett's linemates could travel through time and be different players that the 16 minutes they spent together would've produced goals and points.

So which is it? This is the same thing in my opinion as pointing to a preseason game to illustrate what a player can do even though he has 200+ regular season games to choose from.

I'm not saying Bennett is Rob schremp but maybe if the best indication of a players offensive game is the preseason, they don't have a remarkable resume of being an offensive player.
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Old 05-25-2018, 02:37 PM   #1042
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The Toronto media pumped up this bum so much before the draft it was sickning. And when you look at all the Gems drafted after him it's so irratatimg.
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Old 05-25-2018, 02:54 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by Flamenfame View Post
The Toronto media pumped up this bum so much before the draft it was sickning. And when you look at all the Gems drafted after him it's so irratatimg.
Except, look at the Central Scouting ranks and tell me who you would have drafted in the Flames spot? Bennett was a dream to be selected at 4.
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Old 05-25-2018, 02:55 PM   #1044
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The Toronto media pumped up this bum so much before the draft it was sickning. And when you look at all the Gems drafted after him it's so irratatimg.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:00 PM   #1045
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Honestly the most I saw from the media about Bennett prior to the draft was the damn pull up.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:06 PM   #1046
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Originally Posted by Royle9 View Post
Even Strength Line Combinations - ENTIRE SEASON -
(Not 1 of these line combo's is as bad as sames HIGHEST)
76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4%BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

WHERE IS THE 4th LINE? The above are the pairings he played last season, all stats from every game. Sure they may have called it a "4th line" in a newspaper clipping but do any of the guys above look like 4th liners when compared to what the flames hail as 4th liners? Brouwer, Hathaway, Chiasson, Lazar, Stajan etc??



.59 pace? Was that in the 22 game season? He never played a full season before Mathew's was drafted. Look at his linemates during that season:

53.7% HYMAN,ZACH - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - PARENTEAU,PIERRE
14.5% HYMAN,ZACH - KAPANEN,KASPERI - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
Parenteau had 41pts in 71 games

"even if the majority of the time he plays with Matthews" - Do you realize what you're saying? You cannot for a second compare Nylander playing alongside Matthews basically 80% of his career to Bennett not putting up points playing with career 3rd/4th line players. There's no "EVEN IF Bennett" because he's never been given 80% playing time with our top 2 STARS.

Matthew's is a generational hyped player, there is no comparable. I would bet $ on Sam putting up 50pts if he played along side Matthew's for 80% of his first 2 seasons including top line PP time on a PP with success.

Let's circle back to "if Sam could put up anything"
Bennett had a .67 PPG in 2015-16, what does that basically equate to partner? The fact you're using "basically equates" as leverage for "fact" should discredit you alone.

See the difference is I'm not putting too much emphasis on Sam's linemates because he's had garbage for the majority of his "3" year career thus far, playing 2 of those under a coach who gave him a very short leash and saddled him with veteran plugs for the majority of the time. I'm not making this up, the statistics show it, I'm simply bringing visibility to the claims people are making here.


How many Flames forward looked "fantastic" to you this season?
Johnny - Sure
Sean - Sure
Ferland - Sure the first half, 2nd half he fell back to reality
Tkachuk - Half decent, he played his ROLE well
Backlund - Underperformed
Frolik - Underperformed
Brouwer - disaster
Stajan - servicable
Lazar - disaster
Hathaway - should never see any time outside of 4th line 13F playing time.
Jankowski - Inconsistent
Bennett - Inconsistent


Bennett and Jankowski looked basically similar, except Jankowski is 2 years older and was given 5 more years of development time VS Bennett thrown into the NHL immediately.

I'm not saying Sam turns into a 60pt ALLSTAR, I'm not selling him as the next best forward the Flames will have 2018/19. Because I dont know
What I do know is Sam has yet to be given the tools needed to succeed thus far in his short career. Perhaps its too late, hockey is a mental game and there's a chance he'll never turnout because he was rushed. But nobody here today can say 100% fact that Sam will NEVER be good even if he's given top 6 time because nobody has seen what he can do in that position thus far.

Its like me saying Bingo wont be a good a making hockey sticks. I have no clue, I haven't seen him make one, I don't know if hes been trained properly, I don't know if anyone's shown him the craft thus far and given him the tools needed to build one. But there are some of you who would say today that he cant because he he's built chairs before and his chair measurements are terrible compared to everyone else yet he's never been given the proper tools to build chairs.
Like I said, you're paying way too much attention to quality of linemates. Your point doesn't even hold weight because Sam Bennett's best stretch in December came with Hathaway on his line who you're crapping on. His stints with the best forwards on this team in Gaudreau and Monahan have been extremely underwhelming which is the reason why he isn't playing on the top line. Don't you think if there was any type of chemistry at all that Bennett would have been a permanent fixture?

William Nylander obviously has played most of his career with Matthews and there's definite success between the 2. But if you look at his numbers without Matthews in the line up, he's no slouch with 24 points in 42 games. Any way you slice it, he and Ehlers have been considerable better than Sam Bennett thus far into their careers and they've played their way higher up in the lineup whereas Sam has done the opposite. He hasn't earned any right to play more minutes.

Also, you want to talk about discrediting someone? Do your math again. Bennett's ppg in 15-16 was was 0.47, not 0.67. Get your facts straight before you try to discredit someone else "partner."

At the end of the day, all I hear from the Sam Bennett apologists is excuses. You're blaming everyone else for Bennett's failures except for the person who's most responsible, Sam Bennett. He's got a lot to work on this summer if he ever wants to be an impact top 6 forward and he better figure it out quick because he's starting to get passed by fellow 2014 draftees like Kevin Fiala, Alex Tuch, Nick Schmaltz, Danton Heinen, Adrian Kempe, Kevin Lebanc and etc.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:25 PM   #1047
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I'm starting to come around to why GG wants to sit out the entire draft process. What have any of those players done to prove themselves in the NHL? Nothing, that's what.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:37 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either 16 minutes is too small of a sample size to show something or it isn't.

So a sample size of one season is too small for someone to win an Art Ross trophy because it's too small to show if someone is a Hall of Famer? Differences in occurrence of different events can mean different sample sizes as useful.

You're talking about a sample size in which shot attempts were taken both ways. I'm not pretending that's huge but it's sure as #### bigger than a sample size in which zero goals were scored for either team. Goal scoring events are highly rare and more dependent on factors which skaters can't necessarily control.



Quote:
Why does the relative corsi matter in 16 minutes but actual production doesn't?

Because one is a measure of process and one is a measure of results.

Saying a line failed in a small sample size suggests the process was poor. But we see that no, the process was there. We don't know if that process was sustainable or bound to produce results, but we do know it was the kind of process you want from your "third line". This line was producing 58% of the shot attempts when the rest of the team was producing 45% of the shot attempts.



Quote:
He's using his post to disagree with another poster that they did in fact work based on the corsi, and that if Bennett's linemates could travel through time and be different players that the 16 minutes they spent together would've produced goals and points.

That's not what I'm using my post to state. I couldn't possibly tell you whether "1993 Jagr and 2010 Versteeg" would have had any results in that small sample size. I am telling you the following, and I'll even bullet point them out just for you:



- 16 minutes was an inadequate sample size to say this line failed regardless of any statistics, positive or negative.



- However, the underlying metrics of this line were strong - which is reason to have kept them together rather than split them apart after only 16 minutes together


- The supplied video of one of the games this line played shows the underlying numbers were accompanied by some high quality chances



- A larger sample size however, would not have assured truly high-end results, because over a large sample size, Jagr's shooting percentage had fallen off to 8.0% over his final 104 NHL games, contrast that with his shooting percentage he had the two year priors - 14.1% and Kris Versteeg was injured to the extent of only playing 24 games last season, none of which he was necessarily healthy for. However, had Jagr been the player he was two seasons ago and Versteeg been the player he was just one season prior, and Bennett playing exactly as he had, there is reason to believe that the potential for a strong line combination existed.



- Put together, The underlying numbers and eye test suggest this line "not working out" has to be taken as a myth. They weren't together long enough to be evaluated even though the underlying metrics and eye test indicated they should have been kept together longer.



Really, you are simply being obtuse to my posts which is why you are not acknowledging their content and fixating on whatever detail supports your predetermined conclusion (which, of course, is why you made this thread).



Quote:
So which is it?


It's this:

Sam Bennett centering Versteeg and Jagr was an under-explored idea that had not failed at any point unless you are evaluating based on goal events within sixteen minute sample sizes (and even then, they were break-even). However the fact that Versteeg nor Jagr were individually effective all year is good reason to beleive that even the best combination of linemates he had all year when playing his natural position was inadequate to make any sweeping evaluation of him as an individual. In fact, the only better combination of linemates he had was Gaudreau and Ferland and they too, spent only 15 minutes together all season, even with Monahan missing eight games and the Gaudreau-Monahan pair even being broken up early in the season it was Lazar, not Ferland who played with Bennett.



Quote:
This is the same thing in my opinion as pointing to a preseason game to illustrate what a player can do even though he has 200+ regular season games to choose from.

Again, you are being obtuse. I explicitly stated Bennett has done those things in NHL games. None of them are unique to that video, they are just packaged together succinctly. You are the one fixating on that detail to ignore the fact that Bennett does those things in NHL games.

That said, and again I already stated this, he has never, not once, played that role on Gaudreau's power play unit as he did in that preseason video, so it is not possible for him to have ever in 200+ regular season games to have reproduced one of those plays, because he's never played that role.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:45 PM   #1049
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Yea because of watching and being involved in hockey for 50 years I have no Idea how to evaulate players . It hard to be a Flame fan and try and convince myself like other posters that this is a great team and we're going places with a one dimensional forward who checks out during most important stretch of the season who the team is building around, and to see fans in denial of a draft bust . https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=129
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:08 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
So a sample size of one season is too small for someone to win an Art Ross trophy because it's too small to show if someone is a Hall of Famer? Differences in occurrence of different events can mean different sample sizes as useful.

You're talking about a sample size in which shot attempts were taken both ways. I'm not pretending that's huge but it's sure as #### bigger than a sample size in which zero goals were scored for either team. Goal scoring events are highly rare and more dependent on factors which skaters can't necessarily control.
Then why not leave it at that? Sample size inconclusive. Unknowable based on Jagr and Versteeg both being injured early in the season and other issues on the roster preventing them from getting solid icetime with Bennett? Isn't that the natural conclusion you should take?






Quote:
Because one is a measure of process and one is a measure of results.
Corsi is a measure of results. You're using data from events that have already occurred to create the data set. You are measuring different results like shots to create substance where a measurement of results like goals and assists don't exist. You're saying a positive corsi over 16 minutes is a large enough sample size to conclude they were successful as a line. I'm saying getting more shots than the opposition over 16 minutes is not an illustration of success as a line, it's too small of a sample size. The poster who suggested they failed as a line may or may not be wrong based on the criteria he is using, but pointing to a positive corsi for over 16 minutes of play time is basically the ultimate form of statisical pedantry.

What is the raw data for their corsi rating? Did they get 2 more shots during their 16 minutes than they allowed? Is that substantive of anything?

Quote:
Saying a line failed in a small sample size suggests the process was poor. But we see that no, the process was there. We don't know if that process was sustainable or bound to produce results, but we do know it was the kind of process you want from your "third line". This line was producing 58% of the shot attempts when the rest of the team was producing 45% of the shot attempts.
But again, 16 minutes.

If they were producing 58% of the shot attempts as compared to 45% for the rest of the team, but the rest of the team was producing goals in those 45% and the line generating 58% wasn't, that's an indication they failed as a line, is it not? Ultimately games are judged by goals and not corsi, right?






Quote:
That's not what I'm using my post to state. I couldn't possibly tell you whether "1993 Jagr and 2010 Versteeg" would have had any results in that small sample size. I am telling you the following, and I'll even bullet point them out just for you:



- 16 minutes was an inadequate sample size to say this line failed regardless of any statistics, positive or negative.



- However, the underlying metrics of this line were strong - which is reason to have kept them together rather than split them apart after only 16 minutes together


- The supplied video of one of the games this line played shows the underlying numbers were accompanied by some high quality chances
Was the line 'split apart'? I don't even know. Do you know? What happened to the other two players on that line when they were separated? Were their corsi stats better or worse playing with Bennett, and does that reflect the tangible offense they produced?

Did Jagr generate more assists in 16 minutes playing with Gaudreau and Monahan or did Versteeg generate more offense playing 16 minutes with Tkachuk or Backlund? Where did these players go and what did they do away from that line? How can you know it wasn't a good idea to split the line up if you're not supplying the tangible results from when the lines were in fact split up?



Quote:
- A larger sample size however, would not have assured truly high-end results, because over a large sample size, Jagr's shooting percentage had fallen off to 8.0% over his final 104 NHL games, contrast that with his shooting percentage he had the two year priors - 14.1% and Kris Versteeg was injured to the extent of only playing 24 games last season, none of which he was necessarily healthy for. However, had Jagr been the player he was two seasons ago and Versteeg been the player he was just one season prior, and Bennett playing exactly as he had, there is reason to believe that the potential for a strong line combination existed.
Like...what on earth does this have to do with anything? What if Bennett wasn't Bennett and was actually Ryan Getzlaf playing with 2011 Jagr and 1957 Beliveau?



Quote:
- Put together, The underlying numbers and eye test suggest this line "not working out" has to be taken as a myth. They weren't together long enough to be evaluated even though the underlying metrics and eye test indicated they should have been kept together longer.
1. What happened to the players once they were removed from the same line with Bennett?

2. What happened to team results when they were removed from a line with Bennett?

3. What happened to Bennett when they were removed from a line with Bennett?



Quote:
Really, you are simply being obtuse to my posts which is why you are not acknowledging their content and fixating on whatever detail supports your predetermined conclusion (which, of course, is why you made this thread).
No, I'm being sarcastic because I think these types of posts warrant it.
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:09 PM   #1051
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Yea because of watching and being involved in hockey for 50 years I have no Idea how to evaulate players . It hard to be a Flame fan and try and convince myself like other posters that this is a great team and we're going places with a one dimensional forward who checks out during most important stretch of the season who the team is building around, and to see fans in denial of a draft bust . https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=129
Do you have a post where you suggest in 2014 that sam bennett is a product of the eastern media and sucks and shouldn't be taken in the first round let alone the top 5 picks?
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:14 PM   #1052
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Do you have a post where you suggest in 2014 that sam bennett is a product of the eastern media and sucks and shouldn't be taken in the first round let alone the top 5 picks?
Why would that matter , Tsn was pumping his tires well before pull up bs which should of been a red flag
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:15 PM   #1053
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Why would that matter , Tsn was pumping his tires well before pull up bs which should of been a red flag
I tried, man, I tried.
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:18 PM   #1054
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I tried, man, I tried.
Well I guess all you have to do is put your Pom Poms back in the drawer
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:19 PM   #1055
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Well I guess all you have to do is put your Pom Poms back in the drawer
Nailed it, bro.

You got me.
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:23 PM   #1056
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By apologists do you mean optimists?

People are not crazy to think a guy turning 22 has room to improve. The last 2 seasons make it easy to write off Sam but it is also fairfor people to hope he has more to give as he has shown flashes in the past
There is a difference IMO. It's optimistic to suggest he is young, has shown flashes and can improve and develop consistency. Apologists blame his performance on his linemates and Gulutzan. I know which takes I prefer reading. If Bennett himself subscribes to the latter theories, then it's probably not going to work out too well.
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Old 05-26-2018, 12:52 AM   #1057
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Where do you get the stats for performance with various linemates?

The eye test in December-ish timeframe to me showed that Bennett when on a line with Jagr were a very solid and dangerous third line. I know everybody talked about Jagr sucking wind but the reality is that he was on ice for 15 GF and 6 GA. No other Flames player had that kind of differential.

I also know that Bennett played a lot with Hathaway and we all love his energy but the guy is not offensively gifted in any way.

I hear the term apologists thrown out but there is a big difference between old Jagr and Hathaway.

You can not honestly say that Bennett was a focus of Gulutzan, whereas he was of Hartley.

And you really can not say that Bennett had consistent linemates, game in and game out, in a sufficient amount of aggregated time that gave him an opportunity to succeed.

A good coach will recognize his proven players and his players of potential and develop a plan that eventually works to maximize the overall effectiveness of the team. This is one area where Gully was out of his depth.

Hartley and Troy Ward were both teachers, and I don’t know what Gulutzan and Huska were.

I have a lot of optimism for Bennett because frankly I think he was managed well his first year, not so well the last 2, and I think he definitely needs and can benefit from good coaching. And there is nothing wrong with a young guy needing help to figure out how to put it all together. Players are not generally paid entirely to succeed in any circumstance on their own, irrespective of the situation they are put in.

I think he is potentially a solid asset and yes, the last 2 years he had a crap coach. I really did not see anything from Gulutzan indicating that he was focused on getting the most from Bennett

I really hope that Peters is as good as he sounded in his first interviews here and not as good as his results in Carolina.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:29 PM   #1058
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I feel we should all agree he's been disappointing but I for one would like to see him given next year, the final year of his 'prove it' contract, to show what he's got.

The past is the past and we can argue til we're blue in the face about his untapped potential but the best resolution is to reserve final judgement until next season.

If he struggles under his third coach we know it isn't just the GG effect. If he consistently gets good linemates and still struggles we know it wasn't just quality of linemates.

Give it next season and everything we are debating about should become more clear.

I'm rooting like hell for the kid because players like Jankowski and Bennett developing into top 6 players is key to sustained success for the organization.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:06 PM   #1059
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IIRC, Bennett takes a lot of minor penalties when he is not 'on' offensively. You watch him play during these stretches, and it isn't difficult to see him 'trying to do too much' out there. This is a confidence issue.


Anybody on this board wants to claim that Bennett isn't talented? I don't think you can make that claim without bias. What Bennett needs is both confidence and consistency in his game. There are games even this past season where he was either the best Flame on the stats sheet, or the best Flame 'by the eye test', or even both. There were games where he was the worst.


Gulutzan was not an adequate coach. Cameron was not an adequate coach for the forwards. That's why they were both fired, and why this place has had long, drawn-out arguments about them for 1.5 seasons.



Let's have the patience to see what Peters does with Bennett.


Here is a thought. Look at Bennett's development in Hartley's time with him - short, I know - and see if people thought that Bennett was a 'bust'. I thought Bennett was on a very clear trajectory. Hartley out, Gulutzan in, and suddenly Bennett became a bust?


Anyone follow hockey long enough to see how certain players have bad years under a certain coach, and suddenly rebound under another coach (or organization) playing with different linemates and/or different circumstances? Again, Bennett has the TALENT to get there. He has the talent even in this 'new' NHL where speed matters. He is also feisty and damn gritty, and he is absolutely incredible along the boards and in one-on-one battles.



Let's actually have some patience and possibly see how he responds under a legitimate coaching staff.


edit: sorry for the line spacing - there is only one carriage return between paragraphs here, but for some reason, it is coming out as two.
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Old 05-27-2018, 07:07 AM   #1060
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I really want Bennett to work out as a top 6 forward but I honestly don't see this potential talent that people keep referring to. He looks like a serviceable NHL player that could get a little better.

Regardless of when he's on or off he doesn't have that "puck on a string" look that stars and budding stars have when they stickhandle. The puck is knocked off him so easily.

His flashes of brilliance that people allude to seem more like his constant junior style dangles actually working every once in a while than something that will turn consistent.
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