Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 04-20-2019, 08:58 AM   #21
2macinnis2
Scoring Winger
 
2macinnis2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
Each of those has many factors behind them
Lot of confirmation bias at play here
It's hard to not have some confirmation bias when we're talking about things that happened in the past. There are some examples of heroic players carrying their teams to Cups with lousy coaching work on their backs (maybe Bylsma?) but generally those examples I think are fewer and ultimately those coaches don't last. This isn't the NBA where a Lebron can carry anyone as a coach to the Finals.

But here's for a prediction: I don't believe much in Bednar. I think his team is just red hot. His team is oozing confidence. When he hits a road block, and things start going the other way, I don't think they will have answers (except for maybe put the big line back together and play them half the game). If it's Vegas they play, I see that team as a major favorite because of the mismatch behind the bench.
2macinnis2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:04 AM   #22
flambers
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Flames issues for sure was not coaching, its basically the Flames core really struggled.

Avalanche core were awesome

Flames now need to take a really close look and decide do they have the correct core?
flambers is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to flambers For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 09:08 AM   #23
Erick Estrada
Franchise Player
 
Erick Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
I disagree with your basic premise that the coach is the most important figure and continue to struggle why some folks don't want to hold the players accountable.Your proof point for your premise is a couple of singular examples.
You win and lose on the backs of your best players.
The Flames best players were awful.
That's not coaching, in my view.


Coaching is an important ingredient to be sure - but it is far over weighted by some fans.
I disagree a bit here as a lot of the players in this league are very good and the difference between two really good players is often motivation. Coaches need to motivate the guys that don't have great self-motivation. How else do you explain Barry Trotz and the Islanders? How do you explain the Blue Jackets sweeping the Lighthing especially after hearing Tortz amazing pre-game speech. Even Bob Hartley had the Flames playing over their heads for a season based on hart work and motivation. IMO you need to have the horses to win a cup but great coaching can get you into the playoffs and win a round or two. That didn't happen in Calgary. In fact you can argue the wheels fell off after the all-star break and the coach had plenty of time to get the top guys going and he couldn't. I think Peters had a great first season as Flames head coach but like the players he ran out of answers down the stretch. I know you aren't a Gaudreau fan but it's not all his fault.
Erick Estrada is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Erick Estrada For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 09:15 AM   #24
oldschoolcalgary
Franchise Player
 
oldschoolcalgary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Exp:
Default

While the Flames did struggle in the playoffs, it was players not performing... coaches have a role in that too, but not much you can do in a short series.

One has to look at the year in its entirety.

this team didn't even make the playoffs last year...

Peters is a solid B for me... was treading to a high B or A depending on the playoffs...but they couldn't come up with an answer to the Avs
oldschoolcalgary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:19 AM   #25
Resolute 14
In the Sin Bin
 
Resolute 14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
Coaching is an important ingredient to be sure - but it is far over weighted by some fans.
Counterpoint: Barry Trotz completely turning around the Islanders. Which, if nothing else, reminds me of the absurd "it will take some time to learn the system" defences of Gulutzan's incompetence we saw here a couple years ago.

That said, specific to the Flames, I think Bednar outcoached Peters handily. Also, Peters was exceedingly slow to adapt and react to the fact that the roster was flat as a pancake. In this particular case however, I agree that the lion's share of the fault does lie on the players. And, we can't dismiss what Peters achieved with this squad in the regular season. The banner we'll raise in October will feel like a cheap tablecloth after this, but he and they still earned it.
Resolute 14 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Resolute 14 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 09:20 AM   #26
GranteedEV
Franchise Player
 
GranteedEV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flambers View Post
Flames issues for sure was not coaching, its basically the Flames core really struggled.
They were struggling long before the playoffs, and arguably not a thing was done to really push them back into gear.

Gaudreau and Monahan should have been split up two months ago, yet even in game 5 they were together.

Peters' coaching acumen dissolved when he stopped being Blender Bill and starting emulating the Gulutzan "I trust these guys to break their slump" nonsense.

Likewise, Hanifin-Hamonic were really not very good after around January, yet Peters was locked into them as a pair expecting them to turn it around.

When guys aren't playing well, you need a carrot and stick. That was the Peters we had in the first half of the year. Even Derek Ryan saw himself scratched.

He let the success in the standings mask real slumps. And his obsession with player pairs was not adequate Bennett-Jankowski, Tkachuk-Backlund, Gaudreau-Monahan. The pairs got stale and he just stuck with them. It concerns me going into next season that the staleness might cause us to have another year like 2018.

He will need to do a lot of reflecting and identify what made him successful and what he could have done better.
__________________

"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."

Last edited by GranteedEV; 04-20-2019 at 09:27 AM.
GranteedEV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:23 AM   #27
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

I don’t see coaching as an issue, but leave it to Flames fans to try to run a coach into the ground after the second best regular season we’ve ever had (and doing it without a bonafide #1 goaltender).

To me, it’s about commitment. The guys who did really well were Bennett, Ryan, Mangiapane, Hathaway, Valimaki, Andersson. Everyone else in the playoffs were alright or worse. What do they have in common? They’re self motivators who still have it fresh in their mind how hard you have to work to do anything in this league.

You can tell coach a player on how to beat another team, you can motivate him to do it, but the actual “doing” is 100% on the player at that point. Guys like Lindholm, Tkachuk, Backlund, and Gio did it here and there, but not often enough. When the rest of the team was playing like the 4th line, we were getting chances and making things happen.

Gaudreau backchecked... sometimes, Backlund closed gaps... sometimes, there were a lot of players doing good things “sometimes” and sometimes doesn’t win you rounds.

No problem with Peters for me. Another year in the belt, and a good lesson for a few players on the team about what it actually takes to win.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 09:26 AM   #28
agulati
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Exp:
Default

When is the locker clean out happening?
agulati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:30 AM   #29
TOfan
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

What a surprise, it's the coaches fault.....again.

The OP is just silly. Grasping at straws such as a whole sale change in the teams system (play the trap) during the playoffs would somehow have had an improvement on the results with little thought given to how disruptive that would have been. Did the Flames play the trap at all this year? Ever?

At this point in time, you run with the horses who got you here. You expect the same. The fact the Flames bowed out in 5, is on the players. Full stop. They under performed. And it wasn't one or two guys, it was the majority. Brodie was almost unplayable for at least two games, Monahan has shown he is far from being a legitimate No.1 C, Gaudreau seemed scared (like he did two years ago), Backlund made a number of plays that hurt the team, Gio's age started to show, Neal is going to be a big problem moving forward, Hanafin was 'just a guy', Frolik looked indifferent, Jankowski was no where to be found. Tkachuck was so-so, as the series went on his impact seemed to diminish.

On the other hand Bennett's stock continues to rise with another solid playoff performance, Smith was their best player, Anderson & Valamaki should make Brodie expendable this offseason, Mangapane looked like he's progressing nicely.

Pinning this on Peters is lame. His decisions were fine, he played his hand with cards he was dealt.for the Flames to get better, they'll have to address it through roster composition. The coach is fine. He's better than fine.

Lastly, I don't consider this loss to be 'catastrophic'. At the beginning of the year, what were you honestly expecting? The Flames improved considerably over last season and that's the standard they should be evaluated on. The coach deserves a lot of credit for that in my eyes.
TOfan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TOfan For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 09:31 AM   #30
The Boy Wonder
First Line Centre
 
The Boy Wonder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Exp:
Default

You could have Scotty Bowman behind the bench this playoffs and it wouldn’t have made a difference because when our top forward is Sam Bennett that means that about 6 guys didn’t play well enough. Johnny and mony especially disappeared and were underwater against the Avs top guys. Plain and simple
The Boy Wonder is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to The Boy Wonder For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 09:34 AM   #31
Flamescuprun2018
Scoring Winger
 
Flamescuprun2018's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

A+ for regular season. C for playoffs. So B overall.

Against Avs did not bring out the level of compete necessary amongst his players but do think that falls a bit more on the players than the coach.

First time in the show. So probably a little overwhelmed.
Super dedicated so will likely dissect at nauseaum what happened for months.

Earned another year easily.

Needs to go to the Tortorella school of passion this summer.
Flamescuprun2018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:44 AM   #32
TOfan
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

Thought the panel made a good point last night, either Kypreos or Hrudy. the way the league is now, you need a team that can win in the regular season and a team that can win in the playoffs.

clearly the Flames have a team built to make the playoffs.
TOfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:46 AM   #33
2macinnis2
Scoring Winger
 
2macinnis2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOfan View Post
What a surprise, it's the coaches fault.....again.

The OP is just silly. Grasping at straws such as a whole sale change in the teams system (play the trap) during the playoffs would somehow have had an improvement on the results with little thought given to how disruptive that would have been. Did the Flames play the trap at all this year? Ever?

At this point in time, you run with the horses who got you here. You expect the same. The fact the Flames bowed out in 5, is on the players. Full stop. They under performed. And it wasn't one or two guys, it was the majority. Brodie was almost unplayable for at least two games, Monahan has shown he is far from being a legitimate No.1 C, Gaudreau seemed scared (like he did two years ago), Backlund made a number of plays that hurt the team, Gio's age started to show, Neal is going to be a big problem moving forward, Hanafin was 'just a guy', Frolik looked indifferent, Jankowski was no where to be found. Tkachuck was so-so, as the series went on his impact seemed to diminish.

On the other hand Bennett's stock continues to rise with another solid playoff performance, Smith was their best player, Anderson & Valamaki should make Brodie expendable this offseason, Mangapane looked like he's progressing nicely.

Pinning this on Peters is lame. His decisions were fine, he played his hand with cards he was dealt.for the Flames to get better, they'll have to address it through roster composition. The coach is fine. He's better than fine.

Lastly, I don't consider this loss to be 'catastrophic'. At the beginning of the year, what were you honestly expecting? The Flames improved considerably over last season and that's the standard they should be evaluated on. The coach deserves a lot of credit for that in my eyes.
Maybe I’m just ruined being forced to watch the best coach in the history of any sport (Belichick) have a team be able to shape shift from week to week. Hockey is a fast but fairly simple game. Every team should have some system in place that they can go to to assume an effective defensive posture without emphasizing aggression. In my opinion the Flames needed to go to that early in this series, as soon it was evident how fast the Avs were playing and how solid Smith was making routine saves. The Avs has a plan for Gaudreau. The Flames has no plan for MacKinnon. You need to be able to adjust... trying to force a square peg through the round hole (even if it’s ‘what got you here’) is the hallmark of bad professional coaching.
2macinnis2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 09:48 AM   #34
2macinnis2
Scoring Winger
 
2macinnis2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018 View Post
A+ for regular season. C for playoffs. So B overall.

Against Avs did not bring out the level of compete necessary amongst his players but do think that falls a bit more on the players than the coach.

First time in the show. So probably a little overwhelmed.
Super dedicated so will likely dissect at nauseaum what happened for months.

Earned another year easily.

Needs to go to the Tortorella school of passion this summer.
I would agree with this too. Especially the part on dedication. Gives me some reason for hope!
2macinnis2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 10:00 AM   #35
TOfan
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
They were struggling long before the playoffs, and arguably not a thing was done to really push them back into gear.

Gaudreau and Monahan should have been split up two months ago, yet even in game 5 they were together.
Curious to know what should have done?

Seems like splitting up you're two most dangerous offensive players when you need them most isn't likely to have changed the outcome of this series. There's a few seasons of evidence suggesting these two players are at their best when paired together. Splitting them up would have been a cute experiment, but I trust the Flames coaching staff knows more than anyone what the net benefits of that move may have been.

A coach has 82 games plus a preseason, a training camp, mountains of game film, and what, a hundred, practice's to know these players....you think know more watching from your coach drinking beer with Dorito crumbs on your shirt?
TOfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 10:01 AM   #36
ST20
Crash and Bang Winger
 
ST20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Exp:
Default

Are we really ####ting on a coach that in his first year with the flames coached a non playoff team to first in the West? Coached about 5 or 6 guys to career years? who didn't really have a number one goalie all year? Let's step back and have some perspective.

I agree that this playoff run was bad and don't agree with many things he did during the run such as his obsession with line matching 3m to MacKinnon, sticking with certain line ups too long etc. But come on it's his first year. This team since GGs first year seems to struggle once the pressure is on and teams forecheck hard to take away space but I'm more than happy with Peter's having an off season to try to correct this. You need to learn how to win in the playoffs coaches included. It was his first year with the team and most of the players. If this happens next year I'm completely on board with the coach bashing but to ignore all the positives this year seems a little ridiculous.
ST20 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ST20 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 10:13 AM   #37
Steve Bozek
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2macinnis2 View Post
........ The Avs has a plan for Gaudreau. The Flames has no plan for MacKinnon. ....
The Flames need to get a plan for MacKinnon, because, like McJesus (and I think he’s as dangerous as McJesus), he’s going to be driving that team for quite a while. And if they do get an effective plan, it would probably work against the Edmonton Lottery Balls, as well.
Steve Bozek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2019, 10:15 AM   #38
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

At the end of the day, the players have to execute.


Does anyone believe that Bill Peter's game plan involved giving away the puck constantly in their end, stopping moving their legs, not driving the net, passing all the way across the ice with soft backhand passes.


I believe that Peters is going to take some blame and he should, he'd tell us all that.


But this was an epic failure by the Flames players with the exception of a few. This loss exposed maybe some leadership issues, inexperience issues and in some cases possible character issues.


Its not a simple matter of fixing it, or making trades until its understood what these issues are, and why the Flames to a man played the way they did.


The good news is that the Flames have a really young core, which means that they can still learn from this.


Bill Peter's first playoff foray didn't go the way he wanted it go and for sure he'll learn from it.


I would expect that the wrap up interviews will be interesting. If we hear about the players blaming the coach for being a task master again or a bad coach again then we have a leadership problem.


I expect that this dressing room that was so tight during the regular season lost its cohesion by game 3.



Just my two cents.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 10:20 AM   #39
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Watching McKinnon he's far more dynamic then McDavid, he's willing to do more then just rush down one side of the ice. His willingness to go directly to dangerous areas and his back check is amazing. As much as I believed that McDavid was probably on the way to being the best player in the NHL with Sid getting older, I'm not so sure.


McKinnon is every bit as good at speed, he's a hard stick handler, he uses his team mates well, and in at least one game I saw him use 8 cross overs on one rush breaking Connor's record of 7
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
Old 04-20-2019, 10:23 AM   #40
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Game plans and tactics play a big part in the playoffs, with two teams facing each other 4-7 games in a row. Good coaches adapt their tactics when the opposition is shutting them down. Peters did not adapt to the Avs forecheck.

He's a good coach, but he has no playoff experience as a head coach. He'll probably figure it out. But he was outcoached by Bednar in this series.

And for people who don't think coaching is all that important, Barry Trotz says hi.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:28 PM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021