Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[powderjunkie]

Going near Grey Eagle Casino wouldn't be the craziest idea in the world for the average STH or single ticket buyer (but probably very detrimental to corporate), but only if it was surrounded 360 degrees by parking that is specifically designed to flow onto/off of the ring road and Glenmore...which pretty much kills the integration to an entertainment complex.

It is the one place where a CalgaryNext type monolith could actually work. But, that segment of the ring road would have needed to be specifically designed for it to work well, which would have to happen yesterday (otherwise, it'll be like trying to leave CrossIron mills on a Saturday afternoon in December).

Going south of the Reservoir would only mean a few minutes difference in practice for most people, but it would be enough of a spatial/psychological difference to discourage folks from the north (also, fully reliant on ring road instead of having Glenmore, too.

[Enoch Root]

The best arenas are the best (IMO) because of the amenities around them - Phoenix, Vegas, LA, etc.

If you put the arena on Tsu Tina land, there are no restaurants or amenities nearby. Also, no pre-existing parking, so you have to build thousands of spots (and charge for all of them).

As someone said, it would be detrimental for corporate participation, so you're swimming upstream with respect to revenues as well.

Then there is the issue of nearby development (hotels, office towers etc). Just no incentive for any of the participants to want to go there.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Going near Grey Eagle Casino wouldn't be the craziest idea in the world for the average STH or single ticket buyer (but probably very detrimental to corporate), but only if it was surrounded 360 degrees by parking that is specifically designed to flow onto/off of the ring road and Glenmore...which pretty much kills the integration to an entertainment complex.

It is the one place where a CalgaryNext type monolith could actually work. But, that segment of the ring road would have needed to be specifically designed for it to work well, which would have to happen yesterday (otherwise, it'll be like trying to leave CrossIron mills on a Saturday afternoon in December).

Going south of the Reservoir would only mean a few minutes difference in practice for most people, but it would be enough of a spatial/psychological difference to discourage folks from the north (also, fully reliant on ring road instead of having Glenmore, too.

Right now leaving Grey Eagle after a pretty small concert is a nightmare. But even if the ring road is completed and that problem is solved, there's no train for those who don't want to drive.

[CaptainYooh]

Well, the idea is neither crazy nor dumb. If anyone have not yet heard of TAZA, they should check it out here. Canderel is a very experienced and well-financed entity. The questions should be:
Does TAZA, overall, which is mostly a commercial/retail development, have a feasible and reasonable chance of succeeding in this economic environment? I don't think so. Even if it does, it may take 2-3 decades until full build-out and stabilization; that is if Canderel and its backers still have the financial muscle to support it. Calgary was just not that strong of a market for such a grand scale development when times were good. Now, it's much much more grim. So, yes, Canderel would have loved to have the new arena there as an anchor. But from CSEC's perspective, it's too risky. Which leads to the second question:

Is CSEC leaking this rumour (and, perhaps, even meeting with Canderel) on purpose to get the City off the fence and re-start the negotiations with a little more urgency and will to get it done?

I believe it's the latter. The new arena will be built north of the Saddledome. I have very little doubts that it's going to happen, eventually.

[Manhattanboy]

Well given the speed in which the Tsuu Tina negotiated and finally agreed to the ring road the building could be ready in time for the 2050 season.

[RM14]

Hey guys, the arena is going here:

[Muta]

The arena will never be built out somewhere far away like next to the Tsuu Tina Nation. Ever. The issue with the Saddledome is that there isn't enough corporate box and loge seat accommodation, as mentioned by Burke. There is every reason to have the arena downtown to accommodate these groups and to make getting to games easy, particularly for weeknight games. Putting the arena far outside the downtown core makes absolutely no sense as it puts the product far away from the people who keep the organization successful.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Right now leaving Grey Eagle after a pretty small concert is a nightmare. But even if the ring road is completed and that problem is solved, there's no train for those who don't want to drive.

I know, I'm not saying there is any chance that this happens, nor that it is anywhere near as good as proposed downtown location. Also, my idea wouldn't use the current Grey Eagle configuration in any way.

My only point is that if the Flames were actually desperate to have a new building very soon (as I've said many times, there is no such urgency/desperation) and not pay for it themselves, a development proximal to Grey Eagle wouldn't have been the worst idea in the world. Maybe Ken King figure out how to take a screen shot of google maps and play with it in MS Paint, maybe this was one of his "world-class" ideas back in 2011 that we would see "soon", but it's really irrelevant now.

It is just fun to Sim-City things sometimes. As much as this concept would have many of the short-comings of Glendale or Kanata, it wouldn't have isolated as much of the Flames ticket buying public as those locations.

In this fantasy land, one could have been off Stony Trail and parked next to the field house in 3 minutes, walked their kid into soccer practice, and hopped on a 2 minute mono-rail to a bunch of restaurants/shopping. With their blank slate, this could have been designed to be possible to drop your kid at the Fieldhouse door and then parked near those restaurants 2 minutes later.


Calgary is a car city, and always will be. I am totally in favour of every effort to improve infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists, because I actually use them. I guess my only point is that this could have been a concept with a whole lot more potential than Calgary Next, without any of the opportunity cost issues for the city. Of course, CSEC would have had to play well in the sandbox and share in the benefits with Tsuu T'ina, so it is very much fantasy-land.

It also wouldn't be too big a stretch to get to 37 St LRT spur line to MRU and this district. Just Sim-Citying out loud.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The best arenas are the best (IMO) because of the amenities around them - Phoenix, Vegas, LA, etc.

And I found the "amenities" surrounding Phoenix and LA to be soul destroying franchise restaurant ghettos. Vegas is a different story with better options.

An organically built entertainment area would serve the City better than a centrally planned glorified food court with a liquor licence.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by troutman

And I found the "amenities" surrounding Phoenix and LA to be soul destroying franchise restaurant ghettos. Vegas is a different story with better options.

Are you saying you would prefer no restaurants? Most establishments are going to be chains - everywhere you go. Still better than having nothing.

[dammage79]

i'll be happy if they slap a Fat Burger or two right by the new arena, Love the burgers and the chicken wings. Perfect pre game food. And you can drink beers!

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by troutman

And I found the "amenities" surrounding Phoenix and LA to be soul destroying franchise restaurant ghettos. Vegas is a different story with better options.

An organically built entertainment area would serve the City better than a centrally planned glorified food court with a liquor licence.

A centrally planned glorified food court with a liquor license can work. I mean, isn't that what Stephen Ave is?

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Well, the idea is neither crazy nor dumb. If anyone have not yet heard of TAZA, they should check it out here. Canderel is a very experienced and well-financed entity. The questions should be:
Does TAZA, overall, which is mostly a commercial/retail development, have a feasible and reasonable chance of succeeding in this economic environment? I don't think so. Even if it does, it may take 2-3 decades until full build-out and stabilization; that is if Canderel and its backers still have the financial muscle to support it. Calgary was just not that strong of a market for such a grand scale development when times were good. Now, it's much much more grim. So, yes, Canderel would have loved to have the new arena there as an anchor. But from CSEC's perspective, it's too risky. Which leads to the second question:

Is CSEC leaking this rumour (and, perhaps, even meeting with Canderel) on purpose to get the City off the fence and re-start the negotiations with a little more urgency and will to get it done?

I believe it's the latter. The new arena will be built north of the Saddledome. I have very little doubts that it's going to happen, eventually.

Any developer would love an anchor tenant like a pro club.
The location sucks. There’s no demand for that development.

It’s DUMB.

VERY DUMB.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by troutman

And I found the "amenities" surrounding Phoenix and LA to be soul destroying franchise restaurant ghettos. Vegas is a different story with better options.

An organically built entertainment area would serve the City better than a centrally planned glorified food court with a liquor licence.

Yeah the “amenities” around the LA and Glendale arenas are somewhat laughable, strip mall quality franchises, and created no new life in the area. Go to those areas on non game days and it is dead. The LA arena is downtown and a little different dynamic with some other nearby attractions but I’ve stayed at a hotel right there and those amenities aren’t even open without an event.

If you’re looking for a draw to bring people in those two are horrible examples.

Vegas is of course entirely different. And not anything you can compare to Calgary.

An arena that is secondary to a vibrant well designed area is what would work IMO.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yeah the “amenities” around the LA and Glendale arenas are somewhat laughable, strip mall quality franchises, and created no new life in the area. Go to those areas on non game days and it is dead. The LA arena is downtown and a little different dynamic with some other nearby attractions but I’ve stayed at a hotel right there and those amenities aren’t even open without an event.

If you’re looking for a draw to bring people in those two are horrible examples.

Vegas is of course entirely different. And not anything you can compare to Calgary.

An arena that is secondary to a vibrant well designed area is what would work IMO.

I like the area around the baseball/basketball venues in phoenix. I think you could get close to Vegas' area with a few good restaurants and high end burger/patio places like they have.

Of course, the advantage they have is that it's always patio weather.

[GullFoss]

I wonder if the attendance drop pushes the flames to negotiate more because it signals that the market for seats is tapped out in terms of price increases. And so the building - which offers an easy way to reduce supply - is even more attractive than it was one or two years ago.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Right now leaving Grey Eagle after a pretty small concert is a nightmare. But even if the ring road is completed and that problem is solved, there's no train for those who don't want to drive.

or can't drive. in this day and age you should have access to transit for people that want to have more than one, maybe two beer at a game.

although I guess the city could make a fortune busting people after the game at check stops.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I like the area around the baseball/basketball venues in phoenix. I think you could get close to Vegas' area with a few good restaurants and high end burger/patio places like they have.

Of course, the advantage they have is that it's always patio weather.

Are we talking about the hockey/football complex in Glendale, which is awful. Or the basketball/ baseball downtown area? If the latter, I don't really have an opinion.

I don't really see how you can compare any possible Calgary development plan to something on the Vegas strip. There were a million things to do/places to eat before T Mobil. It filled in some empty space in one of the world's biggest tourist areas.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Are we talking about the hockey/football complex in Glendale, which is awful. Or the basketball/ baseball downtown area? If the latter, I don't really have an opinion.

The only thing awful about Glendale is the location.

The facilities are quite nice. Lots of restaurants within walking distance of the arena. Road access to and from the arena isn't awful considering it's all by car.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

The only thing awful about Glendale is the location.

The facilities are quite nice. Lots of restaurants within walking distance of the arena. Road access to and from the arena isn't awful considering it's all by car.

On a non game day, it’s deserted. Just some chain restaurants surrounding two cavernous buildings and miles of concrete parking lots. I think it’s the exact opposite of what Calgary should aspire to with this.