Sutter is the problem

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Ward had just put Johnny Lindy Chucky together. Maybe the fireworks go off and the coaching change never happens?

Sigh, Monahan's injuries reeeeeeeeeeeeally ####ed this team...

Everyone hated Ward and were super excited that Darryl was back. We would have still wanted an experienced coach.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Need to change coaches. It's pretty obvious.

You need to hire a coach who will have a good working relationship with your new core players - Huberdeau and Kadri. They're your biggest investment. With their input on coach, play style - you make your moves. You need their buy in. The world has changed. You can't just give a player whatever it is that you decide and tell them to deal with it.

It is now their team. Either Huberdeau or Kadri need to be made Captain.

That sets a pecking order in the dressing room and then you go from there.

After what we've seen from Huberdeau and Kadri this season, looking at them as the core of the Flames going forward makes me just not want to watch the Flames going forward.

A team on the downswing with a core of two guys in their thirties who came in and massively underperformed after signing big deals? Okay.... What's on Netflix?

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Everyone hated Ward and were super excited that Darryl was back. We would have still wanted an experienced coach.

Yes, that's because the team was massively underperforming. My question was if Ward had put the big line together and they had success, would there still be hunger to make a coaching change?

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Yes, that's because the team was massively underperforming. My question was if Ward had put the big line together and they had success, would there still be hunger to make a coaching change?

I would think so, he didnt seem like an NHL coach hence why he didnt put that line together, the defense we had last year was Darryl Sutter defense, i dont see Ward coming close to that... we saw how Marky was under Ward vs Sutter..

[Sylvanfan]

I doubt it. Ward's style was too much like Gulutzens which was too passive.

It does look pretty ugly with 8 more years of Huberdeau and 6 of Kadri. That's why I think you need to be ready to trade everyone else on the roster over the next 4 years when the time comes. Double down and it will be worse than what the Sharks are.

[dieHARDflameZ]

If someone wants to pay me $10,000 a day, I’ll go work for the $&@*tiest boss on the planet.

Especially one I can effectively mail it in for, tell them to pound sand and have no fear of losing my job.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

If someone wants to pay me $10,000 a day, I’ll go work for the $&@*tiest boss on the planet.

Especially one I can effectively mail it in for, tell them to pound sand and have no fear of losing my job.

I guess you would probably keep going to work for them until you'd put in enough $10,000 days that $10,000 didn't matter that much to you anymore.

[Khel]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

If someone wants to pay me $10,000 a day, I’ll go work for the $&@*tiest boss on the planet.



Especially one I can effectively mail it in for, tell them to pound sand and have no fear of losing my job.

I mean... You say that now, but money isn't the be all and end all.

Pride in your work, and it's outcomes plays a large part in mental health.

One of my favorite jobs was one where I was paid like ####, but had a great leader and genuinely enjoyed and looked forward to showing up. It carried over into my personal life.

One of my least favorite jobs was one that paid me a ton, but my boss and his boss, and other bosses were complete a holes. This lead to depression, near crippling anxiety, and lose of purpose and fulfillment.

So you say it, but I highly doubt you'd last, yeah you can buy a Ferrari, but you quickly find zero joy in material possessions and it's just a release from the source of the problem.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by zamler

Why do some of you think players are robots? "Just play better" flip the switch stop sucking. Is that how you are at your job? No matter how bad your boss is and how miserable you are, you still perform at peak?

My first ever job had a bad environment. The manager was miserable, the other workers were clearly not happy, and they trained me very poorly. I was pretty much set up to fail. I got fired after two weeks. My confidence was shot and I was mostly blaming myself for getting fired.

My next job I was scared as #### because I was still holding onto that first working experience. I kept on telling myself I was gonna mess up and get myself fired in two weeks again. But the people at that job were very friendly, supportive and trained me well. I was able to pick up the ropes pretty quickly and ended up becoming a trustworthy person on the team.

Now, the service industry is vastly different than an NHL team, but the point I’m trying to make is that having a good working environment matters. Obviously there’s players that are just lazy and/or bad and will fail regardless of the environment. But if Darryl is causing a lot of tension in the room and it isn’t salvageable then you pretty much have to move on from him

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Do not disagree with your post at all and the first comment about needing to change coaches but at what point do we stop blaming coaches and ice a better hockey team?

We have won 3 first rounds in 30 plus years, 2 of those rounds with the guy behind the bench right now.

Countless coaches that did not win anything here, why dont we blame the GM? He is the one that hires these coaches, ices the roster... based on what i have seen, the next coach is going to be outed by the flames in short order, it happens with every single coach... why would that change?

Oh I'd say it's pretty much all on the GM and his brain trust at this point. Afterall, management specifically selects the coaches and players to execute their vision of how they're going to play and perform on the ice.

But it doesn't seem to matter who they hire to coach whether young or old, promising or accomplished, modern or old school, player's coach or hard ass, it doesn't matter as it ends up with the same result when it's all said and done again and again.

This is not a new story, we've seen comparable seasons like this play out in similar fashion before and it will continue to play out like this with different name tags until this organization fundamentally changes the way they go about things.

Build the team the right way through the draft from the ground up and take your time. Stop building your team through free agency especially if your talent evaluation isn't up to par. These quick, easy, yet risky fixes only serve to patch up mediocre foundations, not build a proper one that will stand the test of time.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Need to change coaches. It's pretty obvious.

You need to hire a coach who will have a good working relationship with your new core players - Huberdeau and Kadri. They're your biggest investment. With their input on coach, play style - you make your moves. You need their buy in. The world has changed. You can't just give a player whatever it is that you decide and tell them to deal with it.

It is now their team. Either Huberdeau or Kadri need to be made Captain.

That sets a pecking order in the dressing room and then you go from there.

This is called the McDavid & Draisaitl Crossover Strategy. Trouble is it always leads to the closest sweeps in league history.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, if you're unwilling to take on the situation that you have been creating for the last 9 years, that is not exactly shedding a positive light on your resume

We don't have the full picture, including the speculated lack of autonomy due to an ownership group that meddles in hockey ops.

If that has merit, then I'm sure he can explain that in any job interview. He's done well enough on the trade market and value contract re-signings that his street cred is still quite strong.

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

This is called the McDavid & Draisaitl Crossover Strategy. Trouble is it always leads to the closest sweeps in league history.

I would gladly take the Oilers position in the standings and forward group future outlook over the Flames right now sadly.

[Paulie Walnuts]

The stuff John Stevens talked about in his podcast are ringing true of how Sutter coaches.

When he called Doughty Mr. Fancy Pants and other names. Throwing a stick at a players head and telling them to try a new one.

Ripping guys is ok, do it on a 1 on 1 setting like a coach, but humiliating players in front of their peers and media is not alright and the person that is getting it is usually left embarrassed.

How would you feel one day when you are sitting in a team meeting and your boss gets up suddenly and starts ripping you and telling you are not a very good? You left huge amounts poop in the toilet? Sound like a fun place to work?

He also said Sutter got upset with the players last year because they started playing to pad individual stats and he hates that. Kind of defeats the oh but Gaudreau and Tkachuk thrived being 100% sticking to the system. A bunch of BS.

Maybe that's why Tkachuk is still producing because he cares about his individual stats. Maybe Sutter reiterated that they will change how they play this upcoming season and that was it for Tkachuk, not saying its the only reason.

[flames_fan_down_under]

This organization is just going to keep spinning its wheels. It's just gotten so painfully tiring.

Hartley wasn't a players coach, nor was he BT's guy, so we get BT's hand picked guy in Gulutzan, guy was too much of a players coach and there are culture issues, lack of effort from our top guys, fire GG and hire Peters. Peter's is another BT hand picked guy, Flames get outclassed in the first round, team looks average coming out the gate in his second season, still questions of effort with this team, Peters is let go because he is not a very good person. We get Ward who goes from interim to permanent spot, team continues to be decidedly average. Sutter comes in, supposedly not BT's choice but the owners choice, which is funny because it's the best coach we have had in BT's entire tenure and it, allegedly, wasn't even his choice. Sutter openly talks about building a culture of hard work and success. Team does really well, we lose our top players, team doesn't do as well. Team is still in win now mode because ownership, allegedly, has deemed this the only path for this team. Sutter is a win now coach, and he is extended. Now he is too hard on the new "top" players on the team, who also surprisingly look terrible, and we need another coach. A win now coach but someone nicer because Kadri (who actually looks like he is hitting his typical career numbers) is not happy. Even though Kadri is essentially looking like the Nazem Kadri of the past. (Huberdeau I admit is a mystery. He just straight up looks bad, plays are dying on his stick.)

Frankly I do not trust BT to pick a coach that can do the job.

It also might just be that this team is just not that good.

[ComixZone]

It’s the coach, and it’s the roster.

If they try to do one without the other, we’ll just end up in the same spot.

This situation requires a big picture overhaul, and multiple years worth of tanking and rebuilding - and if this team isn’t willing to do that, then they’ll stay the same. Mediocre and absent of success.

[Yeah_Baby]

I think good leaders lead by example. If you're asking your team (be in corporate or sport or whatever) to forge the identity that Sutter has talked about, you have to lead by example. Put in the work yourself, all those things that Darryl expects and demands of his Captains. If I'm a member of that team and being asked to constantly give 150 percent instead of 95, and what I get rewarded with for busting my ass is a stick thrown at my head, or being called Mr. Fancy Pants, all in an attempt to 'motivate me' by essentially denying my humanity. Well, I'd quit on the leader too.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The stuff John Stevens talked about in his podcast are ringing true of how Sutter coaches.

When he called Doughty Mr. Fancy Pants and other names. Throwing a stick at a players head and telling them to try a new one.

Ripping guys is ok, do it on a 1 on 1 setting like a coach, but humiliating players in front of their peers and media is not alright and the person that is getting it is usually left embarrassed.

How would you feel one day when you are sitting in a team meeting and your boss gets up suddenly and starts ripping you and telling you are not a very good? You left huge amounts poop in the toilet? Sound like a fun place to work?

He also said Sutter got upset with the players last year because they started playing to pad individual stats and he hates that. Kind of defeats the oh but Gaudreau and Tkachuk thrived being 100% sticking to the system. A bunch of BS.

Maybe that's why Tkachuk is still producing because he cares about his individual stats. Maybe Sutter reiterated that they will change how they play this upcoming season and that was it for Tkachuk, not saying its the only reason.

Maybe this, maybe that. You bring up this interview like it was anything but an absolute ringing endorsement of Sutter by 3 people who are in the game. That interview is a Sutter puff piece man and each of those guys said how awesome it was for the team that he was holding star players accountable just like anyone else. It was seriously a freaking gush fest.

Look at the record. 4 decades worth of HOF level coaching. Worked for 4 organizations, only fired from 2. 2 coaching stints longer than any coach who has worked in Calgary Flames history. Short term my ass. You keep your maybes. The record speaks.

[Yeah_Baby]

the record is achieved at what cost? And is the record all that matters, or journey and health of how people get there. Ends, means, etc etc.

We're starting to talk about an autopsy while the body is still technically on life support and bleeding. The fact of the matter is we're just identifying all the ways that lead to the necrotic flesh to begin with.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by mile

My guess is that Sutter will step down and go back to the farm after this season, ownership will convince him to stick around in the same role he had in Anaheim as a coaching staff advisor. Love, Muller, or Brunette takes over.

Make sure the relationship is still on good terms so that Sutter doesn’t coach the no goods out of spite and I’ll be happy.

That would be a rather entertaining circus show to see Sutter coaching Edmonton. McDavid is the boss. Sutter is the boss. Neither of them see eye to eye on how to play the game. The Oilers would reach new levels of no good.

Unfortunately Sutter is smart enough to know that no situation would work with Sutter and McDavid on the same team.