When will next season start? Return to Play Negotiations

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Crazy idea but since the CBA calls for revenue to be shared 50/50, why don’t they actually do that. Advance the players 90% of their expected cut of revenue as the year goes on, adjust your estimate every month with updated revenue figures and settle up in full when you close the books at the end of the year.

Kind of like how every large partnership distributes earnings to its partners.

I have often thought about this...contracts shouldn't be based on dollars since with escrow it's not real anyways. Simply negotiate percentage of CAP and adjust monthly or quarterly based on projection of season. I believe a lot of annamosity is because most players have an expectation of the dollar amount that they sign their contract for. The reality is that due to total revenue underperforming they are disappointed at years end.

[Manhattanboy]

With the US holidays behind us I guess it’s not a stretch to suggest this is a pretty critical week for the parties to make some progress on the issues.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Crazy idea but since the CBA calls for revenue to be shared 50/50, why don’t they actually do that. Advance the players 90% of their expected cut of revenue as the year goes on, adjust your estimate every month with updated revenue figures and settle up in full when you close the books at the end of the year.

Kind of like how every large partnership distributes earnings to its partners.

I don't think this would work well for lower-earnimg players. With most of their salaries already going to cover living expenses it would be a bad idea to put them in a position to potentially return money to the League each month.

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[Cecil Terwilliger]

Low earning players already spend most of their salaries on living expenses?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Low earning players already spend most of their salaries on living expenses?

I would guess most spend quite a bit on them, yes. They are also working on saving as much as possible given the limited window of earning potential, so I think this would put a lot of players in a very difficult spot.

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[Jay Random]

If a player earning the NHL minimum of $700,000 is spending most of his salary on living expenses, then what happens if he gets sent down to the AHL where he gets $75,000? Does he live in a cardboard box and beg on street corners?

For reference, $75,000 USD is more than the median household income in Canada according to the last released figures, which were pre-Covid. I guess most Canadians who are not hockey players are living in holes in the road, and take turns sleeping under a flap of the poor AHL player's cardboard box one night a week.

[krynski]

I think the point Textcritic is trying to make is that they all don't make 75-90K. For a lot of these players, they have invested the majority of their teenage (and even younger) and adult lives up to this point in hockey, hoping to make it to the big stage. For a number of them, they might end up in the AHL/ECHL not making as much as they hoped (for some, enough to live off of, but not enough to try and plan retirement).

https://work.chron.com/pro-hockey-salaries-1275.html

I had a bit of a hard time finding info, but AHL minimum contracts are ~45k (though average 90k), ECHL ~26k.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by krynski

I think the point Textcritic is trying to make is that they all don't make 75-90K. For a lot of these players, they have invested the majority of their teenage (and even younger) and adult lives up to this point in hockey, hoping to make it to the big stage. For a number of them, they might end up in the AHL/ECHL not making as much as they hoped (for some, enough to live off of, but not enough to try and plan retirement).

https://work.chron.com/pro-hockey-salaries-1275.html

I had a bit of a hard time finding info, but AHL minimum contracts are ~45k (though average 90k), ECHL ~26k.

If any of these guys think that the end of their hockey career should mean a retirement from working life, then they are fools. This actually comes up every time there is a labour dispute. How am I supposed to put away enough to live on for 60 years with this meager wage? No one is entitled to that kind of wealth, and whenever one of them brings it up it comes off as incredibly tone deaf.

One of the things that broke the union in 2005 was the drunk open letter from some 4th liner about how he might have to actually work like some sucker. That was when the public realized just how out of touch these guys are with their expectations of wealth to come from a game that they should be pretty happy to play for just about any amount of money. The players make themselves less relatable than billionaire owners. It will happen again if they sewer this season.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by krynski

I think the point Textcritic is trying to make is that they all don't make 75-90K.

But we are talking about NHL players here, and they all make at least $700k before escrow. The money earned by AHL and ECHL players is completely irrelevant to the split of revenues between the NHL and NHLPA.

[powderjunkie]

One of the biggest issues here is that the players view their supposed 72% (really 80% in most cases) as a sacrifice on their part, when in fact it is a major win for them and gigantic concession from the owners.

[1_Flames_Fan]

I really want to see some good news regarding the season starting soon. This Pandemic is kicking my ass and I need something to look forward too. Let's get it done NHL/PA

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[mrkajz44]

I normally never feel bad for the owners, but the more I read about this, the more I think its really the players that are the ones at fault here. They were the ones fighting for the 50/50 revenue split with the 2013 CBA, but now that revenues have disappeared for a year or two, they don't seem to want that 50/50 split anymore. All this escrow / deferred salary / % of original salary talk is really smoke and mirrors to try and get them more then 50% of revenues, no?

I understand it sucks that you signed a contract for $X million, but your only going to get 30% or whatever of that, but that's how the 50/50 revenue split works - revenue goes in the tank, so does your salary.

[1_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

I normally never feel bad for the owners, but the more I read about this, the more I think its really the players that are the ones at fault here. They were the ones fighting for the 50/50 revenue split with the 2013 CBA, but now that revenues have disappeared for a year or two, they don't seem to want that 50/50 split anymore. All this escrow / deferred salary / % of original salary talk is really smoke and mirrors to try and get them more then 50% of revenues, no?



I understand it sucks that you signed a contract for $X million, but your only going to get 30% or whatever of that, but that's how the 50/50 revenue split works - revenue goes in the tank, so does your salary.

Yeah ultimately I see the players needing to bend here. The owners were maybe a bit shortsighted in signing the CBA and assuming the world would be back to normal by this season but the players need to carry their share of the financial burden of decreased revenues too. It feels to me like the alternate proposals the NHL made are pretty reasonable. Players may hold out or make a counter proposal but I doubt the owners will give in much or maybe even at all. I doubt the players want to lose a season and forfeit 100% of their salary.

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[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by 1_Flames_Fan

Yeah ultimately I see the players needing to bend here. The owners were maybe a bit shortsighted in signing the CBA and assuming the world would be back to normal by this season but the players need to carry their share of the financial burden of decreased revenues too. It feels to me like the alternate proposals the NHL made are pretty reasonable. Players may hold out or make a counter proposal but I doubt the owners will give in much or maybe even at all. I doubt the players want to lose a season and forfeit 100% of their salary.

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I think the proposal is asking for an increase in actual salary put in escrow from 20% to 25% plus an additional increase in deferred money (which they'll get back at some point). So are players really willing to toss out the entire season for 5% of their paycheque? In which case, of course, they end up losing 100% of their paycheque (75% of their salary) forever.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't think this would work well for lower-earnimg players. With most of their salaries already going to cover living expenses it would be a bad idea to put them in a position to potentially return money to the League each month.

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I don't follow what you are saying here and probably because I wasn't very clear. I wouldn't expect them to return money in a month.

At the start of the year, you estimate HRR and the player's share. Players draw say 90% of their share of HRR (each player according to their relative share as determined by their negotiated "salary"), you update your estimate every month, to increase or decrease their draw and then settle at the end of the year. The 10% is a cushion so players aren't ever writing a cheque at the end of the year.

You don't carry forward into future years. This is how law firms, accounting firms etc. pay their partners.

It obviously gets tricky because salaries right now are negotiated dollar amounts which don't have the ability to increase in value over time. You would have to change that model.

The problem with the current system and the reason when players don't like escrow is that it is not entirely equitable. Look a non pandemic year as example.

Player x has salary of $5,000,000. HRR comes in lower than projection slightly. That difference will result in making him less than $5M in the current year, as he will not receive all of his escrow payment. However if HRR exceeds projections, it gets added to next year's salary cap. He doesn't get any kind of bonus for that.

I'm far from that knowledgeable in how the system works but I believe this is accurate. Which kind of explains why players are looking to push some of the shortfall onto future years.

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by 1_Flames_Fan

I really want to see some good news regarding the season starting soon. This Pandemic is kicking my ass and I need something to look forward too. Let's get it done NHL/PA

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This is a potentially big failure for growing the NHLs audience for precisely your point above - people want to watch sports and get a break.

I'm like you, and have now watched more soccer (Champions League and the premiership) this year then in the past 10 years combined. I'm now a legitimate fan, following on the Athletic & reddit while also watching 2-3 matches a week, and highlights.

Soccer, and particularly the premiership, is showing how to build an audience where there was none. Cheap deal to stream games in markets that can grow combined with great stories on netflix and amazon that let you learn more about the history and the teams (eg. Sunderland, ManCity and now Tottenham).

NHL does none of this. Even worse, they may cancel the season because the two sides somehow managed to screw up the deal 5 months ago.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

This is a potentially big failure for growing the NHLs audience for precisely your point above - people want to watch sports and get a break.

I'm like you, and have now watched more soccer (Champions League and the premiership) this year then in the past 10 years combined. I'm now a legitimate fan, following on the Athletic & reddit while also watching 2-3 matches a week, and highlights.

Soccer, and particularly the premiership, is showing how to build an audience where there was none. Cheap deal to stream games in markets that can grow combined with great stories on netflix and amazon that let you learn more about the history and the teams (eg. Sunderland, ManCity and now Tottenham).

NHL does none of this. Even worse, they may cancel the season because the two sides somehow managed to screw up the deal 5 months ago.

I know nothing about the premier league other than its wildly popular on a global scale.

I do assume, however, that their broadcast deal affords them the luxury of playing regular season games regardless of in person attendance/gate revenue.

The NHL does not have that luxury at all. Massive difference.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The problem with the current system and the reason when players don't like escrow is that it is not entirely equitable. Look a non pandemic year as example.

Player x has salary of $5,000,000. HRR comes in lower than projection slightly. That difference will result in making him less than $5M in the current year, as he will not receive all of his escrow payment. However if HRR exceeds projections, it gets added to next year's salary cap. He doesn't get any kind of bonus for that.

I'm far from that knowledgeable in how the system works but I believe this is accurate. Which kind of explains why players are looking to push some of the shortfall onto future years.

Nope, the bolded are wrong. In the before times, owners paid into escrow the same as players, and players would get back more than their full share of escrow in the event of higher than projected HRR.

One of the biggest problems has always been the design of the salary cap and that more teams spend more above the mid point than below. And it's a positive feedback loop, as once that is the case every 'cap dollar' only cost like $0.95 in real money.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Major Major

One of the things that broke the union in 2005 was the drunk open letter from some 4th liner about how he might have to actually work like some sucker.

Don't recall this. It sounds like a hilarious read. Is there a source, or who was the player?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Don't recall this. It sounds like a hilarious read. Is there a source, or who was the player?

I don't remember it at all.

all I remember is Modano making a comment about strike pay not being enough to feed his dogs.