[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

From an Athletic article today: https://theathletic.com/576819/2018/...oesnt-respect/

I don't know how much I can quote since it's behind a paywall, but as somebody who was adamantly against trading Hamilton (and still disappointed), I'm starting to believe there's more to this story than just anecdotes (from John Shannon of all people) of Dougie preferring to spend time at museums rather than with the "guys at Moxie's".

Imagine the coach or GM or a teammate trying to give advice to Dougie, but he shrugs them off because he doesn't "respect [them] as humans"?

This whole thing is so disappointing because you can see and quantify Dougie's value on the ice, but I'm really starting to believe the mockery the media has made of the museums and Moxie's situation is starting to turn.

There are also some quotes from Ray Ferraro saying essentially that Dougie is good enough that the team should just learn to live with any possible personality warts. That's probably my stance as well, but ultimately it depends on who he's clashing with.

I've been thinking about Dougie.

Hypothetically, if one of my co-workers didn't show up at an end of year/christmas gathering or something, everyone would be wondering where they are and why they didn't show up to the event. Then if that person wasn't really participating in other team (ie. team building) events during the year, for sure they'd be isolating themselves and if they didn't have good reasons, even if they were a superstar, this would affect the entire group.

I don't buy the "suck it up because he's good" argument. Culture and team building matters, no matter the organization or industry.

I'm glad he's gone tbh. Even without knowing the intimate details, it's just a distraction for everyone.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

He was not run out of town. As the team's most valuable trade chip (excluding the untouchable trio of Gaudreau, Monahan, and Tkachuk) following a career season, he was the logical piece to trade from an area of organizational strength (defence) to improve on an area of organizational weakness (right wing). The team traded older players with less remaining team control for younger players that fit the age range of their core, while addressing its dire need for right hand shots. It was a hockey trade, pure and simple.

Not so sure the organizational strength (defence) you refer to is all that strong.

[pepper24]

For me I think it all started with how Hamilton handled his brother being waived and claimed by Arizona.

"I'm just here to talk about the game." With body language showing he wasn't too happy about everything. He could have handled that a lot better.

I don't remember Robyn Regehr acting this way when his brother got beat out by a young Mark Giordano. It was a non-issue hence why Regehr besides being a terrific player also had the character to make him a Flames great.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Not the organizational strength (defence) you refer to is all that strong.

Organizationally, they are strong in this area, at least 2 players from the farm have already joined the parent team this year, and at least 1 more is likely to (Valimaki, Andersson, and Kylington). Currently, there is only 1 high-end player on the parent team, but that doesn't make it an organizational weakness.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Love

I wonder how Bennett would be doing in Carolina had we traded him and kept Ferland

Bennett would still be bottom 6 with zero points. Big difference between the 2 players.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by heep223

I've been thinking about Dougie.

Hypothetically, if one of my co-workers didn't show up at an end of year/christmas gathering or something, everyone would be wondering where they are and why they didn't show up to the event. Then if that person wasn't really participating in other team (ie. team building) events during the year, for sure they'd be isolating themselves and if they didn't have good reasons, even if they were a superstar, this would affect the entire group.

I would think that a superstar being socially isolated would have a much bigger impact than some 4th line grunt. That 4th line guy, people really only expect him to do his limited job. Star players are all expected to be leaders to some extent.

IDK.

The vagueness of it all sounds to me like people have trouble putting to words what specifically is the deal with him. His own comment does suggest that he might have some entitlement issues, but I would expect we'd have heard more about that if it was the gist of the problem. A lot of what's being told makes me wonder if he has trouble understanding social rules and/or unspoken rules? If he has those kind of issues, it would actually kind of make sense to have his brother around as a social translator of sorts. (I really don't want to speculate with anything resembling a diagnosis. I'm not a shrink and I've never met Dougie Hamilton.)

I have sympathy for Dougie, but it also sounds like it was probably best for everyone that we moved him. I hope he finds a way to fit in Carolina, or somewhere.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Bennett would still be bottom 6 with zero points. Big difference between the 2 players.

Yeah when Ferland was the age Bennett is now he wasn’t even in the NHL

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by heep223

I've been thinking about Dougie.

Hypothetically, if one of my co-workers didn't show up at an end of year/christmas gathering or something, everyone would be wondering where they are and why they didn't show up to the event. Then if that person wasn't really participating in other team (ie. team building) events during the year, for sure they'd be isolating themselves and if they didn't have good reasons, even if they were a superstar, this would affect the entire group.

I don't buy the "suck it up because he's good" argument. Culture and team building matters, no matter the organization or industry.

I'm glad he's gone tbh. Even without knowing the intimate details, it's just a distraction for everyone.

That's funny - reading your example, I view it totally different. If one of the best workers in a company is introverted and skips xmas parties and team potlucks, I wouldn't care at all. I definitely wouldn't jump to - let's fire this person cause they don't fit in!

[Vinny01]

At the end of the day something is up with Dougie that much is certain. He has been a heck of a player but has been moved twice by the time he is 25 despite seemingly being a player with Franchise Dman capabilities.

I don’t know if it is as much about not fitting in with the team off the ice as it is portrayed. I get the impression he is a pouty guy that probably lost his cool when his brother was waived. It definitely appeared that the Flames acquired Freddie specifically for Dougie.

I was a big supporter of moving Dougie this summer but to me it was obvious from a far something was up with him and despite the stats, skill and size there were other red flags that made me glad we moved on when we did

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

At the end of the day something is up with Dougie that much is certain. He has been a heck of a player but has been moved twice by the time he is 25 despite seemingly being a player with Franchise Dman capabilities.

I don’t know if it is as much about not fitting in with the team off the ice as it is portrayed. I get the impression he is a pouty guy that probably lost his cool when his brother was waived. It definitely appeared that the Flames acquired Freddie specifically for Dougie.

I was a big supporter of moving Dougie this summer but to me it was obvious from a far something was up with him and despite the stats, skill and size there were other red flags that made me glad we moved on when we did

Seems to be a classic example of selling high.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

That's funny - reading your example, I view it totally different. If one of the best workers in a company is introverted and skips xmas parties and team potlucks, I wouldn't care at all. I definitely wouldn't jump to - let's fire this person cause they don't fit in!

I think you are both right though. It's not one or the other, it's a sum of the parts story. Does the anti social employee in this example, anit social behaviour impact the performance of the rest of the employees and the greater team?

Team chemistry is a thing in hockey for sure, so there is definetely some correlation between individuals and their fit (regardless or talent) and the teams overall performance. But, it's likely a wide range, based on a number of factors. How much better would the Flames have been if Dougie "fit in better"........if you believe the stories? And are we better off without him, given how good he was, but wasn't fitting in?

Answer is likely it depends, but this is where the NHL and regular joe work analogies fall apart. Unlike in your or my work, the Flames can actually ship Douggie elsewhere for different workers.

Clearly the Flames felt what ever Dougie's value was as the most talented player in the trade (but his overall performance being diminished, even if only minorly by not fitting in) + Ferland was not as good as the return of replacing him with a lesser D-man (for now) and an upgrade to our forward depth + the potential for better locker room chemistry.

Only time will tell if true. But the point is, it's not as simple to say the Flames viewed Douggie's lack of fit more important than his talent...........it was the sum of all of it, plus the sum of the return that made them think this would be a positive move for the club.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by heep223

I've been thinking about Dougie.

Hypothetically, if one of my co-workers didn't show up at an end of year/christmas gathering or something, everyone would be wondering where they are and why they didn't show up to the event. Then if that person wasn't really participating in other team (ie. team building) events during the year, for sure they'd be isolating themselves and if they didn't have good reasons, even if they were a superstar, this would affect the entire group.

But, and just hypothetically speaking here, what if your end of year Christmas gathering was a complete ####show and everyone knew it. Coke off strippers, cheating on girlfriends, more alcohol than you can drink. And those who participate came into work hungover wishing for death the next day while their performance suffers. And if it wasn't once a year but couple times a week.

Would you still blame the person who didn't go?

There's a point where "team-bonding" becomes simply "debauchery." You hope that isn't the case for your organization, but if it was an issue, I wouldn't blame the guy who wasn't participating.

Although it could be worse, they could have been playing FortNite!

I don't think we have enough of the picture to make a decision. What I do know is that the team was able to trade him for some very good assets and I'm excited to see how they work out.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Missing team gatherings is an issue ... the suggestion he couldn't take criticism is an issue if true.

I think someone from TSN did a count on the number of times Giordano went back for the puck in X number of games and came in with a high 80s percentage or something. If true that's an issue too.

Then I just can't get past the fact that it's two organizations that essentially had whispers of the same problems.

Yeah, this is where I come down as well.

The museum stuff has been blown way out of proportion. If Hamilton was just a quirky nerd off the ice it wouldn't be a problem. Bobby Holik used to spend most of his time away from the rink at museums and art galleries.

...While most hockey players spend their time on the road sleeping or going to the latest movie, Holik visits museums, art galleries and civic landmarks. He is a voracious reader, especially when it comes to news and history. And, in 1996, Holik became a U.S. citizen and was able to vote for the first time the following year.

Asked if Holik was a student of the game, Devils defenceman Colin White answered that Holik was a student of life.

"If you ever see him, he's wearing a suit with five newspapers sticking out of his pockets. He reads non-stop. If we're on a five-hour flight, he'll read for five hours," said White, who is amazed at what Holik does on the ice in the heat of battle...

- Globe and Mail, May 2001

Holik may have been a bookish and independent guy away from the rink, but on the ice he gave teammates everything he had. And he was an assistant captain and a captain in the NHL. So this notion that NHL players will ostracize a teammate if he's not a dumb jock is nonsense.

The problem with Hamilton is that he didn't seem to have any interest on improving the parts of the game that he's not very good at. You can't have a top-pairing defenceman who's as shaky and undisciplined without the puck as Hamilton is. And when the Flames pushed him to improve, he basically sulked and said he was done in Calgary. You can bet Carolina won't be the last stop in Hamilton's career.

[heep223]

All great points here.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Missing team gatherings is an issue ... the suggestion he couldn't take criticism is an issue if true.

I think someone from TSN did a count on the number of times Giordano went back for the puck in X number of games and came in with a high 80s percentage or something. If true that's an issue too.

This one is the big one to me.

Jermaine Franklin sent out a tweet immediately after the trade that referenced "And Brodie may even recover the puck for Giordano" or something like that when it was mentioned that pairing would play together again on trade day.

To me that tweet has stood out...because if Giordano was frustrated with Hamilton and his style of play on the ice then he likely needed to be moved.

The other thing I've found interesting is that even though he's been paired with Slavin for the most part so far in Carolina, he's not really getting top pairing minutes - he's been 4th, 6th, and 4th in total TOI among d-men through the first 3 games (5th in ES, 3rd in PP, and very little PK time).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This one is the big one to me.

Jermaine Franklin sent out a tweet immediately after the trade that referenced "And Brodie may even recover the puck for Giordano" or something like that when it was mentioned that pairing would play together again on trade day.

To me that tweet has stood out...because if Giordano was frustrated with Hamilton and his style of play on the ice then he likely needed to be moved.

IIRC wasn't Reg reportedly tired of always being the guy to get the pucks in the corner when he played with Dion?

and if this was the case, a message by Gio would go a long way in influencing Treliving IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Can't say I paid a lot of attention to the exhibition games, but on Saturday I did notice Dougie's absence and was not blown away by Hanifin, that's for sure...

Hanifin did not have a great game on Saturday, no question. But I thought he was really good in Vancouver last week.

I don't think a game here-or-there provides for us any useful information for comparing Hamilton and Hanifin in Calgary, and more to the point, especially not in the first weeks of the season. Lest we forget that Hamilton was an unmitigated disaster for the first while in his first season with the Flames. While it has only been two games Hanifin has looked better than Hamilton did based on my recollection of his start in Calgary.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Love

I wonder how Bennett would be doing in Carolina had we traded him and kept Ferland

I wonder how Ferland would be doing in Calgary had we traded Bennett and kept him. I think it is likely he would not be playing on the top line and top powerplay.

I still liken this trade as a "win-win" for both Carolina and Calgary. It looks like it could turn out to be fantastic for both teams.

[GreenLantern2814]

Just an early observation - Hanifin handles the puck better than Dougie. I'm open to this just being in my imagination, but that's what I think I'm seeing.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I wonder how Ferland would be doing in Calgary had we traded Bennett and kept him. I think it is likely he would not be playing on the top line and top powerplay.

I still liken this trade as a "win-win" for both Carolina and Calgary. It looks like it could turn out to be fantastic for both teams.

I think a big reason to trade Ferland was because we have Bennett who plays a somewhat similar gritty style and has untapped high end abilities.

But yea no way Ferland would be getting the same treatment, he would be much further down the depth chart than he is now in Carolina.