[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

He didn’t trade Berra, Burke did.

I’m not being condescending I’m being factual. Cliff Fletcher is as valid a comparison for Treliving as Serge Savard. They are from a completely different era.

Glencross & Hudler were trade deadline deals so the teams acquiring them were looking for short term help. Reinhart & Seiloff were win/win trades as well. I don’t think the Predators even met the games played condition for the Flames to receive the pick for Reinhart. Seiloff lasted longer with the Senators than Chiasson did with the Flames.

If any of these trades are “wins” they’re still a long ways away from embarrassing the other team that made them to the point where they won’t deal with the Flames anymore.

WTF does a different era have to do with trading reps and being avoided because you fleeced someone?

You are really reaching here. I think you better check out games played for Seiloff - he played a game for the Sens. One game. How many did Chiasson play? And how much short term help were Glencross and Hudler? How good were the picks?

But leave Treliving aside, there have been recent "fleecings" by other gms who still seem to manage to find trading partners. Remember how no one dealt with Nill after he got Seguin and Peverly for a bunch of scrubs? And Spezza for Chiasson? How did Doug Wilson ever get a deal after stealing Thornton? How did Pile ever get a deal after Forsberg?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Winning a trade is fine, as long the other GM (or GMs) do not feel like you pulled a fast one. There has to be transparency and honesty to show that you are dealing in good faith. A big part of the job is building trust and relationships.

If you "win" a trade, I don't think any GM would hold it against you. But if you purposely "fleece" the other GM by not disclosing any and all issues, it wouldn't be good for your reputation. Maybe it's just my definition of the word "fleece" in this scenario, but I take it as meaning that one side took advantage. The dictionary definition is "to swindle". No one wants to deal with someone that swindles another person.

For example, if Carolina traded Lindholm or Hanifin and misled the Flames on the contract requests, it would be bad. Or if a player is being traded because of locker room or off ice issues and the team didn't mention those, and resulted in a "fleecing", it would hurt their rep.

It's a general principle in business. If you are selling something and you ask why the person is selling, if they don't give you an honest answer and it backfires on you, you are not going to rush to do business with that person in the future, nor would many other people. If Treliving can work out a professional relationship with Carolina where the trades are fair for both, it would be really beneficial in the future.

I generally agree with this, though I think bad faith would probably happen more along the lines of undisclosed injuries, as opposed to locker room or contract stuff. Or maybe something unusual like if St. Louis implied to Buffalo that Berglund had provided a NTC list and they weren't on it.

[Cantrader]

Why is Adam Fox not in this year's world jr? Is he too old or injured?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Cantrader

Why is Adam Fox not in this year's world jr? Is he too old or injured?

He’s 20

[Coach]

Treliving's wins have been in contract negotiations which has kept our stars under 7m for long term and opened up even the possibility to bring in Lindholm and Hanafin, as well as having a decent chance at being able to keep both and Tkachuk together long term.

And Bill Peters.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Congrats to Lindholm for scoring his 18th goal; new career high, and 1 point shy of his 45 point season high. This thread is too long, but I recall Canes fans commenting on Lindy’s ‘muffin’ of a shot right after the trade. He might not be a pure sniper, but many of his goals have cleanly beaten goalies.

Less than halfway through the first season of his contract. Lindholm alone has outscored Hamilton (10pts) and Ferland (17pts) combined. Hanifin has 19 points to his name and has outscored both Hamilton and Ferland as well, while being on pace to also mark a career year. Playing 2nd pairing minutes alongside a solid but not particularly offensive Hamonic. Most importantly, both of these players seem to be contributing to team success more than the departed players.

After Ferly’s hot start, his production had slowed down, but obviously the recent injury is the most concerning for his overall well being, future contract prospects, and team success. Hamilton without Gio has floundered offensively, which is not much surprise to most Flames fans.

Adam Fox better be huge for the Canes, otherwise the last off-season may be one of the worst for a team in several years.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

Congrats to Lindholm for scoring his 18th goal; new career high, and 1 point shy of his 45 point season high. This thread is too long, but I recall Canes fans commenting on Lindy’s ‘muffin’ of a shot right after the trade. He might not be a pure sniper, but many of his goals have cleanly beaten goalies.

Less than halfway through the first season of his contract. Lindholm alone has outscored Hamilton (10pts) and Ferland (17pts) combined. Hanifin has 19 points to his name and has outscored both Hamilton and Ferland as well, while being on pace to also mark a career year. Playing 2nd pairing minutes alongside a solid but not particularly offensive Hamonic. Most importantly, both of these players seem to be contributing to team success more than the departed players.

After Ferly’s hot start, his production had slowed down, but obviously the recent injury is the most concerning for his overall well being, future contract prospects, and team success. Hamilton without Gio has floundered offensively, which is not much surprise to most Flames fans.

Adam Fox better be huge for the Canes, otherwise the last off-season may be one of the worst for a team in several years.

yeah, it's a bit perplexing? its definitely not a muffin...but its not like stamkos or Laine either... but I think its just in the tier below elite snipers... enough to get you to 40 (crossing my fingers) goals.

i like Ferly, but i think the concussions have prevented him from being the player we dreamed of...a 30/20 power forward... understandably, he move away from the physical play the longer he was in calgary, due to being sensitive to concussions.

its a tough thing, some players don't seem to get too affected by concussions, while others can get one and have their careers ended.

tough deal. Hope Ferly gets better and is able to sign a solid UFA contract next season in case his career is shortened...

[Vinny01]

We haven’t talked a ton about Hanifin this year but he sure has been solid for the Flamea. Absolute amazing contract and hopefully will hit 40pts this year.

Deservedly so this trade went from being called “the Hamilton trade” by the talking heads and would now be referred to as “the Lindholm trade”. Lindy has been so amazing in all aspects this year.

I really think this trade has changed the ceiling and window for this team. Hamilton looked like the first mega-contract the Flames would have to deal with ($8M+) and the team was not where I think Treliving or many fans hoped they would be at that time. This deal secured the Flames younger players who have absolutely blossomed in Calgary. They now have 2 core pieces picked in for under $5M per for 5 more years after this season. Lindholm is absolutely playing like an $8M player right now (all situations, over ppg) Hanifin is definitely warning his money and could have a huge breakout year very soon.

This was a franchise altering deal and thanks to the Hurricanes (Lindholm, Hanifin, Peters) the Flames certainly appear to be this years version of the Winnipeg Jets which was a talented team that is stepping from rebuilder to contender.

[red sky]

Lindholm with the best Plus/Minus by a forward at +23. I think there should be some Selke consideration for sure.

[Psytic]

I wasnt a fan of the Carolina connection (mostly Peter's track record) at first but I'm glad to eat crow. This team is fun to watch again. The ability to win 90% of the river hockey games we get into is a pleasant surprise to. They are actually playing a system built to the teams strengths now finally and Lindholm may go down as a Poile Forsberg level steal at this rate.

[Captaincanada80]

Originally Posted by red sky

Lindholm with the best Plus/Minus by a forward at +23. I think there should be some Selke consideration for sure.

It’s rare for a winger to win. Last one was Jere Lehtonin in 2003-2004

[The Yen Man]

Wait, so now some people are complaining that the trade may have been too good for the Flames? Wow, that's a new one. Guess you can't please everyone.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

WTF does a different era have to do with trading reps and being avoided because you fleeced someone?

You are really reaching here. I think you better check out games played for Seiloff - he played a game for the Sens. One game. How many did Chiasson play? And how much short term help were Glencross and Hudler? How good were the picks?

But leave Treliving aside, there have been recent "fleecings" by other gms who still seem to manage to find trading partners. Remember how no one dealt with Nill after he got Seguin and Peverly for a bunch of scrubs? And Spezza for Chiasson? How did Doug Wilson ever get a deal after stealing Thornton? How did Pile ever get a deal after Forsberg?

Maybe read what I wrote.

I said “If” the trade is a win then they are a long ways away from Fleecing the other team. Sure argue that Ottawa didn’t win the trade or receive value. Calgary didn’t qualify Chiasson.

You’re really arguing with yourself here. These are things that Burke has stated, as he had guys who wouldn’t trade with him after the Sedin draft trades.

1. Every single trade you mentioned happened after that, so it could be argued that with all of the trades you mentioned the people making the trade were conscious of how much their trade helped both teams or didn’t and worked from there. This could be as simple as not bragging & making someone else look stupid, or the Glen Sather MO.

2. Winning a trade can be viewed as one person fleecing another, or one person not doing their due diligence. McConnell was canned in Boston after the Thornton trade, & Sutter didn’t fully put Phaneuf on the market. Burke has acknowledged that he heard from another GM Dion was available so he called Darryl. The perception of a trade amoungst GMs becomes reality so the good ones manage the narrative accordingly.

Boston won a cup without Thornton, using the cap space the trade opened up to sign Chara. That’s an easy sell for Wilson to make if he ever had to.

The bottom line is that making trades is about trust, look at why certain teams or GMs only trade or frequently trade with each other.

Because there is a level of trust. If that is broken trades become harder to make.

He’ll look at the Oilers. No GM is throwing them life preservers in a trade. They’ll open with cinder blocks then offer boat anchors. Their four #1’s topped off with McDavid broke trust.

Treliving knows this & is conscious not to break trust.

With Skinner’s success this trade will look more like Waddel or the owner screwing things up rather than Treliving fleecing them.

[Vinny01]

The Flames clearly went to the draft and had a big “for sale” sign on Dougie Hamilton. Sounds like every GM knew about the availability so all had their chance to get him. Carolina also had a want to shake their team up and the deal made sense. A lot of people crowned Carolina victors when the trade was done. This was not a deal where the hockey world laughed at the Canes in June and then did it again in December. I would say the deal was 60-40 in favor of Carolina and is now being referred to as a huge win for Calgary. The Flames also traded for these guys as RFA’s so Treliving had a huge amount of work getting theee guys signed to their deals that also look like steals which makes the trade that much better for the Flames

[TheOnlyBilko]

Great trade we so fleeced Carolina on that one lol

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

You’re really arguing with yourself here. These are things that Burke has stated, as he had guys who wouldn’t trade with him after the Sedin draft trades.
...
The bottom line is that making trades is about trust, look at why certain teams or GMs only trade or frequently trade with each other.

Because there is a level of trust. If that is broken trades become harder to make..

Burke also loves telling the story about how the Canucks were spreading the rumour that the Sedins would only come over to North America if they played on the same team. Something they would deny later saying.

If Burke was having a hard time trading after acquiring the Sedin picks, it was because he was dishonest, not for fleecing.

It's especially weird to try and bring up the Sedin trades because they didn't even break out as a duo until 2005-2006. No one knew there was any fleecing occurring until long after the trades happened. Until after the lockout it would be weird to try and say anyone fleeced anyone. Stefan, Henrik Sedin and Connolly were all producing at roughly the same level. 30-40 points. The only issue was Brendl busting, but that pick went Chicago->Canucks->Tampa->New York Rangers. It's not even the Canucks who 'fleeced' anyone with it.

So, you're telling me someone wouldn't trade with Burke in 2007 because the Sedins broke out and chronically injured Stefan busted in the new NHL? Lol.

[Dajazz]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

If someone told CP that BT would trade for a middle six forward and a defenseman a week ago - would you say that sounds logical? Especially if it's Hamilton?

No, you send Hamilton and whatever is needed to get a top line forward.

Lindholm is only two years younger than Ferland who might cost you 4-5 million on his next contract. Lindholm is probably coming in at 5+.

That's why I hate the trade. The Calgary Flames are not a better team after the trade. We might be, so again, we traded on of our most valuable pieces for two good players with potential.

So now we are left with pretty much 0 pieces to trade for scoring help. Brodie is needed, Gio is Gio, Hamonic well... yea so hey who wants some D prospects and a 1st? Hold on, we didn't have one.

I love to have Hanifin & Lindholm on the team. Great players. But we didn't need Hanifin, we didn't need to replace Ferland with Lindholm. We needed someone who could step in and score 30 goals.

Quoting myself while enjoying a healthy portion of Roasted Crow.

[heep223]

^ awesome.

[Moneyhands23]

^ yup that is awesome!

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Burke also loves telling the story about how the Canucks were spreading the rumour that the Sedins would only come over to North America if they played on the same team. Something they would deny later saying.

If Burke was having a hard time trading after acquiring the Sedin picks, it was because he was dishonest, not for fleecing.

It's especially weird to try and bring up the Sedin trades because they didn't even break out as a duo until 2005-2006. No one knew there was any fleecing occurring until long after the trades happened. Until after the lockout it would be weird to try and say anyone fleeced anyone. Stefan, Henrik Sedin and Connolly were all producing at roughly the same level. 30-40 points. The only issue was Brendl busting, but that pick went Chicago->Canucks->Tampa->New York Rangers. It's not even the Canucks who 'fleeced' anyone with it.

So, you're telling me someone wouldn't trade with Burke in 2007 because the Sedins broke out and chronically injured Stefan busted in the new NHL? Lol.

That isn’t what I said at all.

I mentioned that it can be more difficult to establish trust with people to make a deal if you have a perceived reputation. Burke learned his lesson on this. Treliving know this as well. If you listened to Brad after big trades he makes sure to thank and acknowledge the other side and that he believes and honestly hopes that the deal will help both teams

Everything isn’t black/white or everything/nothing.

Elliotte Friedman mentioned this as well when he talked about Doug Wilson & how he’s referred to by his peers as “the dentist”. He said, once he gets you in the chair he starts making all of the players he has look really good, then he goes to work on you.

Does this mean he has trouble making trades?

No.

It just means that he needs to be cognizant, aware and manage his reputation accordingly. This is what all intelligent professionals do.

I think Treliving is cut from the same cloth.