Vaccines don't cause autism (duh)

[photon]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Eating and (to a lesser extent) driving cars is necessary for my survival.

This reply makes no sense in the context of your original post and my reply.

You said: "I don't know why people blindly get vaccinated where in the past vaccines have been recalled or suspended due to adverse reactions"

You didn't make any qualifications about how necessary something was.

But if you want to go in that direction, measles vaccines are necessary for the survival of millions of people. 70 kids died unnecessarily of measles between the time I posted and you replied.

People buy processed food and purchase cars designed and built by someone else because the risks are low. If the risk was 1 in 2 that you'd die from food purchased from a store, everyone would grow their own food.

Your child has a 1 in 1000 chance of dying if they contract the measles (and greater risks of non-fatal complications), the risks of complications from having the vaccine are far far lower, so it's a simple risk assessment.

Same thing with the flu vaccine.

If people were making the decisions for good reasons with good information that's one thing, but that's not usually the case.. It's because people listen to guys that you like like Jesse Ventura and nod sagely when he says vaccines are a conspiracy to depopulate the world.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

This (bolded) isn't true at all. People have gotten GBS under the last current swine flu scare. Didn't someone post a video of that girl who couldn't walk properly after having a swine flu shot? I don't remember if that was GBS or not, but clearly a neurological problem.

Out of $1.9billion being rewarded, you don't think any of the payouts were from legit vaccine damage?

As for my own personal experience, I would rather risk getting a harmless flu that lasts a few days, than taking even a slight chance at having complications from a vaccine.

This is a very important fact you fail to understand. Your risk of having serious complications from the regular flu is much higher than that from a vaccine. If it was the other way around, vaccines would not be offered. This is how modern medicine works. Treatment is only offered when the potential benefit is greater than the potential risk. This has been verified time and time again when it comes to vaccines.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by robocop

personal attack? where? what? are you kidding me? If you want to see a personal attack I'll give you one that'll make you cry yourself to sleep, you started an argument that didn't exist and can't deal with it. grow up.

Step 1: Make vague, unsupported statement.
Step 2: Get called out on stupidity of such statement
Step 3: Respond with more unsupported statements sprinkled with insults
Step 4: Get beaten soundly by logic and called out on insults
Step 5: Go into internet tough guy mode
Step 6: Profit?

Originally Posted by rubecube

Step 1: Make vague, unsupported statement.
Step 2: Get called out on stupidity of such statement
Step 3: Respond with more unsupported statements sprinkled with insults
Step 4: Get beaten soundly by logic and called out on insults
Step 5: Go into internet tough guy mode
Step 6: Profit?

You forgot the initial step of berating those hurling insults who have a difference of opinion.... stating:

I think some of you are being way too hard on the cautious and the skeptic, I will probably vaccinate my kids but name calling and insults really serve no purpose. I for one uphold the right of anyone to be skeptical of any product of government, period

why? what purpose does it serve? negative criticism is clearly not going to change anyone's mind here. It does not objectively prove any point or form any argument. The only real purpose I see here is that it makes you feel better when you insult someone.

and you don't see the hypocrisy in insulting someone for no other reason to make yourself feel better? If you want someone to see your viewpoint do you really think ridicule is an effective way of portraying a message or maybe presenting a coherent argument with objective information is best. If someone refuses to listen just leave it alone, otherwise you just end up looking like a hypocrite to everyone else who isn't quite so polarized. If your purpose isn't to help convey a coherent argument or viewpoint the only other thing I can think of is some anonymous sense of masochism and superiority.

And myself(and probably many others), being less polarized than the more vocal people in this thread came into this topic curious about what people have to say. Unsurprisingly I see mostly bickering and insults, when I see that I can't take anything you say seriously because you look equally childish as the willfully ignorant. That's why it's counterproductive, you aren't going to convert the ignorant with insults and the objective and curious have trouble giving credence to the opinions of the arrogant and condescending.

And then he follows up with steps 4 and 5 with these gems:

you are lacking in the areas of comprehension and reading ability. This is comical, you two grouping up and creating an argument against me... that I never made and doesn't exist. Seriously people.

personal attack? where? what? are you kidding me? If you want to see a personal attack I'll give you one that'll make you cry yourself to sleep, you started an argument that didn't exist and can't deal with it. grow up.

yeah that's fairly typical of this forum. I have yet to insult anyone, but if you want to call me a hypocrite I couldn't care less, honestly, go nuts.

A classic series of posts!!!! Robocop, I salute you.

[Street Pharmacist]

As a pharmacist I feel I should say my piece. Health is a choice and in this country a right. However, like all other rights, the rights of others must enter into the equation. From a public health perspective, if you have a treatment/prophylaxis for morbidity you weigh risks versus benefits. Why then, can we be against all vaccines? I will freely admit debate on some, but all? You may always choose, but be informed at least before you pretend to be. Saying you will eat your multivitamins, but not vaccinate your children against serious disease? Show me the benefit of multivitamins? What if I told you the leading cause of poisoning in children was those multivitamins? Would you consider those to be serious side effects? There is not one good study I have found showing any real benefit to your magic anti-virus therapy...

[Thor]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Are these frauds?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33845867...h-cold_and_flu

http://www.torontosun.com/news/colum.../12680636.html

In the first one it even states in the title that the CDC says 'no clear link' and the 2nd states its her feeling its the vaccine.

She might be right, but to this day no link between vaccines and GBS, in fact the evidence is quite clear its not going to be.

In your 2nd story they even mention the most common reasons for triggering of GBS:

According to the Public Health Agency, there are about 600-700 new GBS cases a year in Canada, caused usually by food-borne bacteria, respiratory infections or surgery.

As is often with non medical people if something makes you I'll near anything like a flu shot you'll blame the flu shot. Because your no expert your feeling or gut instinct takes over, queue Mommy instinct Jenny McCarthy.

Again, GBS is very rare, and no link to vaccines has been found. 1 in a Million type deal, but the risks of flu's to you or those around you are substantially higher.

I'm not a hardcore advocate of flu shots, I am someone who gets them, not for me but my elderly father and the many young children/babies I come in close proximity with now being in Iceland where everyone seems to have a new baby these days.

[kdogg]

Originally Posted by jar_e

WHY WAS THIS THREAD BUMPED!?!? ugh this thread kills me.

This thread was bumped by someone who posted a news story from a year ago.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by kdogg

This thread was bumped by someone who posted a news story from a year ago.

Yup - my fault, my bad.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

As a pharmacist I feel I should say my piece. Health is a choice and in this country a right. However, like all other rights, the rights of others must enter into the equation. From a public health perspective, if you have a treatment/prophylaxis for morbidity you weigh risks versus benefits. Why then, can we be against all vaccines? I will freely admit debate on some, but all? You may always choose, but be informed at least before you pretend to be. Saying you will eat your multivitamins, but not vaccinate your children against serious disease? Show me the benefit of multivitamins? What if I told you the leading cause of poisoning in children was those multivitamins? Would you consider those to be serious side effects? There is not one good study I have found showing any real benefit to your magic anti-virus therapy...

Well I don't have my own kids for one thing, and secondly, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say kids should not be vaccinated at all, but I would choose to delay some of their shots, and I probably wouldn't have my kid get the seasonal flu vaccine at all.

I should have put my multi-vitamin comment into better context. I was just trying to say that you don't need vaccines to be healthy. Good nutrition/exercise and all that goes along way to avoid sickness.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

This is a very important fact you fail to understand. Your risk of having serious complications from the regular flu is much higher than that from a vaccine. If it was the other way around, vaccines would not be offered. This is how modern medicine works. Treatment is only offered when the potential benefit is greater than the potential risk. This has been verified time and time again when it comes to vaccines.

Serious complications from the flu? Get lost, .....fear mongering at it's finest. I'm a healthy adult, the flu is not going to kill me.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Serious complications from the flu? Get lost, .....fear mongering at it's finest. I'm a healthy adult, the flu is not going to kill me.

Yeah but what about the people you could expose to it. Are you trolling? Because as if you didn't know that.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Serious complications from the flu? Get lost, .....fear mongering at it's finest. I'm a healthy adult, the flu is not going to kill me.

It may kill you, it may not. Being a relatively healthy adult, probably not. However, please acknowledge or refute the following facts, which you have ignored thus far:

1. You getting the flu puts others at risk of contracting the flu from you, and puts many of those people, particularly if they are young, old, or have compromised immune systems at significant risk of dying.

2. The range of adverse consequences of you getting the flu is not: die or don't die. If you contract the flu, there is a good chance that it lands you and anyone else that you pass it on to in the hospital or clinic. This puts the limited capacity of the health care system in jeopardy. This has the potential for anything from minor to very significant monetary and social costs could end up taking beds away from other people that need beds for much less preventable illnesses.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Serious complications from the flu? Get lost, .....fear mongering at it's finest. I'm a healthy adult, the flu is not going to kill me.

Not suggesting you are likely to die from the flu. However, you are more likely to die from it than from a vaccine. The odds of both for a young healthy adult are very small but the risk from the flu is greater. That does not even take into account the public health benefits of vaccines. Nowhere did I say that the serious complications from the flu are common, simply that they are more common than those from vaccinations. Visit any hospital and compare the amount of patients hospitalized from flu complications versus vaccination complications. Better yet, read any peer reviewed journal or medical textbook.

Your arguments are falling on deaf ears... these points have been mentioned but are completely ignored... a common them in pretty well all of Mikey's stances.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah but what about the people you could expose to it. Are you trolling? Because as if you didn't know that.

I don't frequent nurseries, schools, hospitals, or old folks homes.

I also have sick days, so if I fall ill I can stay home from work for a few days.

If people are so fragile that they cannot go out into public without becoming ill, maybe they should stay home.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Thor

Again, GBS is very rare, and no link to vaccines has been found. 1 in a Million type deal, but the risks of flu's to you or those around you are substantially higher.

I'm not a hardcore advocate of flu shots, I am someone who gets them, not for me but my elderly father and the many young children/babies I come in close proximity with now being in Iceland where everyone seems to have a new baby these days.

Actually, the inserts for the swine flu vaccines specifically listed GBS as a possible side-effect.
..and like I said, I don't frequent places where there are babies or sick elderly folks.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I don't frequent nurseries, schools, hospitals, or old folks homes.

I also have sick days, so if I fall ill I can stay home from work for a few days.

If people are so fragile that they cannot go out into public without becoming ill, maybe they should stay home.

What about subclinical manifestations of the flu where you may not be aware that you are sick. Should "fragile" pregnant women also not venture into public as they are also relatively high risk for complications.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

What about subclinical manifestations of the flu where you may not be aware that you are sick. Should "fragile" pregnant women also not venture into public as they are also relatively high risk for complications.

My job is not to look out for the health of others. Like photon alluded to, there are lots of risks to living life.

It sounds like, if it were your (and others in the thread) choice, a public forced-vaccination program would be favoured.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

My job is not to look out for the health of others. Like photon alluded to, there are lots of risks to living life.

It sounds like, if it were your (and others in the thread) choice, a public forced-vaccination program would be favoured.

No one is suggesting a mandatory vaccination program. We are simply providing you with appropriate information so you can make an informed decision when it comes to vaccinations. Every person has different threshold when it comes to medical decisions, but in order to do this appropriately, one needs to objectively interpret the the available information/misinformation. Throughout the course of this thread you have repeatedly disregarded scientific literature, germ theory and medicine's understanding of the immune system. We simply wish you acknowledge the benefits and repeatedly proven safety of vaccinations.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Actually, the inserts for the swine flu vaccines specifically listed GBS as a possible side-effect.
..and like I said, I don't frequent places where there are babies or sick elderly folks.

Yes but the odds are ridiculously against it.

Good that you don't go out into public, best you avoid places with people young and old. If you never go into theaters, malls, schools, or other public places are you a shut in?