I almost think that the biggest screw up of the OT and PT was the whole concept of the balance of the force.
If you look at Lore, there were thousands of Jedi Knights and thousands of Sith.
And then Darth Bane came up with the theory that Jedi would be inherently weak because they shared the force among thousands of them, whereas the Sith would be stronger with only two Sith coveting the power of the Dark Side of the Force.
The Sith contend that the more users of the Force the more diluted it becomes until you have people that are unworthy of the Force and what it can do using it and weakening it.
In the Clone Wars they defined the balance of the Force with the family. The Son who was pure darkside, the Daughter pure light side and the Father who kept the two fighting sibling contained. When Anakin came along the father felt that Anakin was meant to take his place to maintain the balance between the son and Duaghter.
then The Sith struck and murdered pretty much all of the Jedi, in original Lore there were two jedi Luke and Yoda, and two Sith Vader and Palpatine. In a sense a balance between Darkness and Light, Two powerful users on each side, but the reason why the Dark Side was ruling was because Palpatine was beyond just the force, he was a master tactician who had cast a corrupt Jedi Order out of Power.
When Vader wiped out Palpatine and himself and Yoda died leaving one Luke, in a sense it was only a balance from a Jedi perspective as they believed that the Light Side was better and more compassionate then the Dark Side.
But what we really found out was that it wasn't balance and that the Force basically bought forth more dark side users in Snoke and Ren.
to maybe balance off with rey and Luke and Leia who wasn't really using the Force all that much.
I think at some point we're going to get the revelation that the Force itself isn't Dark or Light itself, but its the person who's using it that corrupts the Force and maybe the only way that there can be balance is if there is a person who is capable of great compassion and at the same time is willing to enforce the will of the force ruthlessly, and maybe that's Rey
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Yes, in the Legends EU (Extended Universe), but the Legends EU, which was originally just referred to as the EU, had the name "Legends" added to it, because the new movies made all of the "Legends EU" no longer canon.
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They did and in the end, one went dark side because he thought that Vader's idea of peace and stability was what the galaxy needed, and even though his motives were pure, he became a monster.
And his twin sister killed him.
Jacen Solo is probably the model for Rey and Kylo Ren is probably the eventual destination for Kylo if there is a turn.
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The Vader power thing is a source of constant debate among nerds
Anakin Skywalker was peerless in his power, even ignoring the whole stupid Midiclorians thing that was designed frankly to quantify how powerful someone is.
Among the powers that he had he also had prophesy which was a major part of his downfall.]
In the Revenge of the Sith book after his transformation he was described as a artist who had lost his ability to be a great artist, the power was there but beyond his reach. In the book dark lord which was sadly made legends, but was the best Vader book out there, he talked about his ability to peer through the force at future events as being burned out, his ability to do things like force jumps and the such severely hampered.
The things that made Palpatine happy were really three fold.
That Vader killed his wife, he just at that point realized that Palpatine was the only one who would ever accept him for the monster that he had become, a traitor, a murderer a man who killed the thing most dear to him. For their relationship based around eventual betrayal, Palpatine was the closest thing to a friend and a mentor that Anakan/Vader had
That Vader had been brutally injured and needed the suit to live. In Dark Lord they had a great conversation where Palpatine basically asked Vader why he wouldn't betray him and Palpatine made sure that Vader knew that he was completely vulnerable in that walking iron lung and . . . .
That Palpatine had lied so effectively that Vader believed that Palpatine was his path to greater knowledge and power.
If Anakin hadn't been injured, I doubt that Palpatine would have lived long and as powerful as Palpatine was, Anakin was probably more purely powerful though he certainly didn't have Palpatine's other gifts.
But Palpatine knew that Vader was psychologically and physically damaged to the point that while he was still powerful and frightening to nornal people, he was nothing more then a slave to Palpatine, which was ironic because Palpatines seduction of Vader was based around enough power to be free of constraints.
My take on it was that even after the injury, Vader was still far more powerful than other force users, hence his ability to beat all of the remaining Jedi, including Yoda, in a one on one battle.
Palpatine, on the other hand, seemed like a relatively weak force user (in comparison to Vader), but had the ability to manipulate others. I'm not sure if that was part of his force abilities, or if he just happened to also have that talent.
So when Luke is saying he's only felt power like that once, it has to be in reference to Vader. As Luke has felt Vader's power, which was far more powerful than other force users.
My take on it was that even after the injury, Vader was still far more powerful than other force users, hence his ability to beat all of the remaining Jedi, including Yoda, in a one on one battle.
Palpatine, on the other hand, seemed like a relatively weak force user (in comparison to Vader), but had the ability to manipulate others. I'm not sure if that was part of his force abilities, or if he just happened to also have that talent.
So when Luke is saying he's only felt power like that once, it has to be in reference to Vader. As Luke has felt Vader's power, which was far more powerful than other force users.
This could be a wonderful Star Wars debate.
Ok, lets look at Vader's power
As Anakin Skywalker he was supremely powerful, he had the ability to see into the future, he had the ability to manipulate objects and people with force persuasion. He of course had the ability of perception which allowed him to be a supreme fighter and swordsman who believed himself to be better then Yoda.
When he became Darth Vader he dueled Obi-Wan Kenobi and was defeated, maybe not because of his strength in the force, but because he was still unsure of his place in the world as a Sith and constrained by his teachings by the Jedi. In the books Revenge of the Sith and Dark Lord, Palpatine confronted Vader and said that he lost to Kenobi because Kenobi had one clear goal which was the destruction of Vader. He then concluded that if Vader had faced Yoda he would have been killed.
Yoda in the Revenge of the Sith novel acknowledged during his fight with Palpatine that he couldn't beat Palpatine, first of all because they were fairly evenly matched, but second of all because Yoda had spent his life training to fight the Sith from a thousand years ago, whereas the Sith when they vanished into hiding had spent a thousand years evolving learning everything they could about the Force and the application of power and all of that information and training had been passed down until it reached Palpatine. Yoda stated that he just didn't have it to beat Palpatine. Even after Yoda went into exile Palpatine continued to learn and evolve and grow. However unlike previous Sith Master/Apprentice relationships, Vader was angry because Palpatine would only hand over the information in tidbits and sparingly.
Vader after his injuries couldn't manipulate the force in the same way, he wasn't the peerless chosen one anymore or the hero without fear. He couldn't cast force lightning, or look into the future at the currents of the force. While he could call across great distances and still had the perception that allowed him to have an advantage in the fight, he also acknowledged in Dark Lord that he was severely limited by his injuries and his suit to the point where just walking required him to use the Force.
When you also look at the whole Yoda and Palpatine dynamic they were both extremely powerful. but while Yoda followed the limiting Jedi code and was all about being selfless, Palpatine represented both chaos and a lack of limits.
Even going to back to the Opera House scene when he was lecturing Anakin on the difference between the Sith and the Jedi.
The Sith only look inward and concern themselves with their acquisition of power. Because of that Palpatine had no constraints or limitations on how he used the force. Whereas Yoda had limitation on what he could do. What if Yoda had given into his anger and hit Palpatine with force lightning or a choke hold. but Palpatine didn't need to worry about that.
Also remember that the Sith use their power to gain knowledge, but the Jedi used Knowledge to gain power, a small distinction to be sure, but Palpatine was an expression of that.
As well in a final distinction of power. Palpatine use his abilities to manipulate the force itself, he was able to cloud it and corrupt it and deny the Jedi the ability to use it, that was a huge advantage by Palpatine over all the Jedi because it denied the Jedi the ability to see his plan unfolding.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
My take on it was that even after the injury, Vader was still far more powerful than other force users, hence his ability to beat all of the remaining Jedi, including Yoda, in a one on one battle.
Palpatine, on the other hand, seemed like a relatively weak force user (in comparison to Vader), but had the ability to manipulate others. I'm not sure if that was part of his force abilities, or if he just happened to also have that talent.
So when Luke is saying he's only felt power like that once, it has to be in reference to Vader. As Luke has felt Vader's power, which was far more powerful than other force users.
Isn't he possibly alluding to his famous, "I'm not afraid" talk with Yoda - which would be about Vader. But still, Luke sensing Vader's "raw strength" doesn't seem to fit. Luke wasn't that in-tune with the Force yet.
Something I've noticed that I haven't really seen mentioned is that Kylo's face scar is different in the final shot of his hand out to (presumably Rey, not necessarily. Movies!) than it is throughout the rest of the trailer with just a healed scar rather than the metal mesh he has throughout.
Makes me think it either takes place pretty far in the future and the movie's arc is fairly long, or is more likely a dream of Rey's possibly during her training. Similar to Vader/Luke/Cave.
After a bit of thought, is it possible that Luke is talking about himself? When he went ape**** against Vader in ROTJ, that might have been the moment he was talking about.
As Anakin Skywalker he was supremely powerful, he had the ability to see into the future, he had the ability to manipulate objects and people with force persuasion. He of course had the ability of perception which allowed him to be a supreme fighter and swordsman who believed himself to be better then Yoda.
When he became Darth Vader he dueled Obi-Wan Kenobi and was defeated, maybe not because of his strength in the force, but because he was still unsure of his place in the world as a Sith and constrained by his teachings by the Jedi. In the books Revenge of the Sith and Dark Lord, Palpatine confronted Vader and said that he lost to Kenobi because Kenobi had one clear goal which was the destruction of Vader. He then concluded that if Vader had faced Yoda he would have been killed.
Yoda in the Revenge of the Sith novel acknowledged during his fight with Palpatine that he couldn't beat Palpatine, first of all because they were fairly evenly matched, but second of all because Yoda had spent his life training to fight the Sith from a thousand years ago, whereas the Sith when they vanished into hiding had spent a thousand years evolving learning everything they could about the Force and the application of power and all of that information and training had been passed down until it reached Palpatine. Yoda stated that he just didn't have it to beat Palpatine. Even after Yoda went into exile Palpatine continued to learn and evolve and grow. However unlike previous Sith Master/Apprentice relationships, Vader was angry because Palpatine would only hand over the information in tidbits and sparingly.
Vader after his injuries couldn't manipulate the force in the same way, he wasn't the peerless chosen one anymore or the hero without fear. He couldn't cast force lightning, or look into the future at the currents of the force. While he could call across great distances and still had the perception that allowed him to have an advantage in the fight, he also acknowledged in Dark Lord that he was severely limited by his injuries and his suit to the point where just walking required him to use the Force.
When you also look at the whole Yoda and Palpatine dynamic they were both extremely powerful. but while Yoda followed the limiting Jedi code and was all about being selfless, Palpatine represented both chaos and a lack of limits.
Even going to back to the Opera House scene when he was lecturing Anakin on the difference between the Sith and the Jedi.
The Sith only look inward and concern themselves with their acquisition of power. Because of that Palpatine had no constraints or limitations on how he used the force. Whereas Yoda had limitation on what he could do. What if Yoda had given into his anger and hit Palpatine with force lightning or a choke hold. but Palpatine didn't need to worry about that.
Also remember that the Sith use their power to gain knowledge, but the Jedi used Knowledge to gain power, a small distinction to be sure, but Palpatine was an expression of that.
As well in a final distinction of power. Palpatine use his abilities to manipulate the force itself, he was able to cloud it and corrupt it and deny the Jedi the ability to use it, that was a huge advantage by Palpatine over all the Jedi because it denied the Jedi the ability to see his plan unfolding.
There was a reason that Palpatine rarely did his own fighting. Also not every force user manifests the force in the same way. So being unable to see into the future or use force lightning us definitive of nothing.
Vader even in the suit was an unrivalled combatant. He was the enforcer for the empire and finished off remaining Jedi in between the prequels and the force awakens. Vader's power was indeed constrained (moreso by his psychological state then his physical state IMO) but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. By the time of ROTJ Luke was a competent force user and would be able to sense it.
Part of Vader's power was also that he projected his power creating fear in any room he walked into. It was definitely a force you could feel.
Vader's physical injuries would have also had a greater effect on the way he used his power, than his actual power levels. For example, he'd still be able to throw someone across the room, but not do a backflip.
Vader's defeat of Palpatine, after battliing Luke, should be the ultimate proof that he was more powerful.
Edit: This is more controversial, but I also believe Vader remained the chosen one. He just took a really messed up path to get there. Prior to Vader, the galaxy was ruled by corrupt autocrats, and the Jedi were complicit in that and acted as enforcers for these regimes. The Jedi had to go to allow change. I think the prequels did a bad job of communicating this (too much Jar Jar and gratuitous battles), but it was there. Economic blockades, slavery, etc.. All would have had a devastating affect on entire populations, and the previous Jedi order made that possible. Vader had to become evil and wipe them out, then he had to wipe out the Sith. He was the chosen one
There was no doubt that the Jedi were lost as soon as they decided to fight in the war. They forgot what Mace said, they were defenders of the peace not soldiers.
Palpatine's plan was based on the not only predictability of the Jedi, but their arrogance, the Jedi felt that nobody could rival their power and righteousness.
The true power of Palpatine (and I still consider that he was the powered counterpart of Yoda) was that he was the ultimate chess player with the ability to look and see multiple futures.
Once the Jedi decided that their mission was to defend the republic instead of the peace, they were doomed.
As soon as they decided to be generals instead of jedi they were going to die.
Dooku in the Revenge of the Sith book describe Palpatine as a shadow in the force that was constantly looking at and peering through windows to find an advantage.
The Jedi lost their way, on top of that they were supporting a corrupt Republic. If they had followed their past and said "We're not fighting this war, we are going to step away and possibly try to negotiate a peace, Palpatine's plans might not have worked and the Jedi wouldn't have been bushwacked by Clone Troopers.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I see Rey and Kylo switching sides. Kylo feels the pull to the light, which we don't know if killing his father eliminated or not, while Rey doesn't understand her place in everything but appears to have a lot of this pent up anger and intensity consistent with a Sith or someone fighting for the dark side, based on that climax in TFA.
Someone is switching sides, though, I'm betting on that. We saw that start with Finn, and it won't be the last time we see it.
Looks like Snoke may convert her by the end of the movie (where he's like 'fulfill yo' destiny' and she's all bent backwards by force), perhaps after Luke and his senile old talk of ending the Jedi scares her away. Whether she's brainwashed or actually believes in the Sith way is yet to be seen.
I don't think that Kylo can kill his mother, that was just way to obvious not even DC would give that much away in a trailer. I think he struggles with it and ends up not being able to, this makes him even angrier. Maybe Snoke takes notice and starts to think Rey should be his apprentice. I think that Snoke has Leia killed in front of Kylo to make an example and this pushes him over the edge, Snoke goes to capitalize on it goading Rey into striking him down, but Rey decides to side with him inside seeing the inner turmoil.
Or is that to similar to ROTJ? They just copied the first movie before so.. lol
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
If they choose to borrow as much from ESB for TLJ as TFA borrowed from ANH then I guess we should expect for a new character to be introduced for the betrayal followed by redemption story arc a la Lando
If they choose to borrow as much from ESB for TLJ as TFA borrowed from ANH then I guess we should expect for a new character to be introduced for the betrayal followed by redemption story arc a la Lando
If that happens, I can't wait to see what they do for the Ewoks in the third movie.
