Unpopular Opinions about Flames

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, we disagree. Lindholm has scored less in every season and plays a lesser position. he's arguably better defensively, but we don't even know that, in the context of the different roles. Defence as a centre is way harder.

Even if Lindholom scores more this year, with a crystal ball the GMs would take the guy who's been a scoring machine every year for 6 years versus the guy who only blossomed after being traded, and who cracked the 16 goal hurdle only last year.

Is he having a better year than Monahan this year? In goals, yes. But GMs aren't so shortsighted as to think this year is representative of either player.

I mean their job is to project and evaluate players. Monahan developing faster is neither here nor there and doesn’t change the equation for me. Anybody scouting Lindholm vs Monahan over the past 1.5 years would likely notice that Lindholm is faster, grittier, better defensively while being as skilled. In short he’s the better all around player while not sacrificing skill or offense.

Frankly I’m surprised more people wouldn’t take Lindholm over Monahan. Lindholm and Tkachuk have surpassed Gaudreau/Monahan over the past 1.5 years. It’s strange to me that some Flames fans can’t see it.

[GioforPM]

Lindholm and Tkachuk have surpassed Gaudreau/Monahan over the past 1.5 years. It’s strange to me that some Flames fans can’t see it.

This year, maybe (and Tkachuk is irrelevant). Last year Lindholm was great and you could argue he was a key missing ingredient on the line. But Monahan was still 7 goals and 4 points better in 3 less games, playing centre versus wing.

ETA: In a redraft from before last season, Lindholm was 14th and Monahan was 4th. https://www.nhl.com/news/mackinnon-r...ft/c-299071996 A great year isn't going to vault Lindholm 10 spots.

And in this one from last spring, Monahan is 3rd (it only goes to 4th so no Lindholm): https://thecomeback.com/nhl/redrafti...hl-drafts.html

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Lindholm and Tkachuk have surpassed Gaudreau/Monahan over the past 1.5 years. It’s strange to me that some Flames fans can’t see it.

This year, maybe (and Tkachuk is irrelevant). Last year Lindholm was great and you could argue he was a key missing ingredient on the line. But Monahan was still 7 goals and 4 points better in 3 less games, playing centre versus wing.

I understand that. But for me and many people in hockey, points do not simply tell you who is the better player. I’m arguing Lindholm is a better all around player. They can both play centre so the argument that Monahan plays a more important position falls flat for me. If anything Lindholm should be getting bonus points for being more versatile.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I understand that. But for me and many people in hockey, points do not simply tell you who is the better player. I’m arguing Lindholm is a better all around player. They can both play centre so you the argument that Monahan plays a more important position falls flat for me. If anything Lindholm should be getting bonus points for being more versatile.

Lindholm was drafted as a C but he's never spent any significant NHL time there.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Lindholm was drafted as a C but he's never spent any significant NHL time there.

He played some time at centre in Carolina. And he’s looked capable here as well.

He may be one of our top two line centres within the next year, guess we’ll see.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

He played some time at centre in Carolina. And he’s looked capable here as well.

He played a very small amount of time at centre in Carolina. That was a comment when he was traded here. Spot duty at C here and Carolina tells us nothing about his ability to do it full time. I don't even know who he was matched against.

I'd love to see him tried as C. I just think you are assuming a lot about NHL GMs if you think they will take this season or even the last two (when Monahan was just as good or better than Lindholm) to put Lindholm over Monahan. Last year didn't do it in the example I gave.

[Flash Walken]

I think I would take Lindholm at 4.9 over Monahan at 6.3

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think I would take Lindholm at 4.9 over Monahan at 6.3

Irrelevant. On draft day they are getting rookie max.

[Kovaz]

The problem is the Monahan > Lindholm argument pretty much begins and ends at "points". And total points falls short at describing a player's overall quality. The difference in their scoring comes down to essentially one factor: when Monahan was on the ice, he picked up a point on 75% of goals scored, while Lindholm picked up a point on 61%. Flip those around, and Lindholm finishes with 87 points while Monahan ends up with 72.

There are a lot of good plays a player can make that don't result in points:

• Driving the net on a 3 on 2 to create a passing lane
• Screening the goalie on a point shot
• Forechecking aggressively to force a bad pass
• Tracking down low in your zone to turn the puck over

Lindholm makes a lot of these types of plays that Monahan either can't or won't make. Without Lindholm making these plays, Monahan doesn't get the chance to score a good chunk of his points. Watch how many Monahan highlights have Lindholm causing havoc in the crease, either dragging a defender with him, screening the goalie, forcing a rebound, etc.

If we could replace Lindholm with a right-handed clone of Monahan at the same salary, IMO that makes us noticeably worse. If we replaced Monahan with a left-handed clone of Lindholm, IMO we're either about the same or slightly better.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

The problem is the Monahan > Lindholm argument pretty much begins and ends at "points". And total points falls short at describing a player's overall quality. The difference in their scoring comes down to essentially one factor: when Monahan was on the ice, he picked up a point on 75% of goals scored, while Lindholm picked up a point on 61%. Flip those around, and Lindholm finishes with 87 points while Monahan ends up with 72.

There are a lot of good plays a player can make that don't result in points:

• Driving the net on a 3 on 2 to create a passing lane
• Screening the goalie on a point shot
• Forechecking aggressively to force a bad pass
• Tracking down low in your zone to turn the puck over

Lindholm makes a lot of these types of plays that Monahan either can't or won't make. Without Lindholm making these plays, Monahan doesn't get the chance to score a good chunk of his points. Watch how many Monahan highlights have Lindholm causing havoc in the crease, either dragging a defender with him, screening the goalie, forcing a rebound, etc.

If we could replace Lindholm with a right-handed clone of Monahan at the same salary, IMO that makes us noticeably worse. If we replaced Monahan with a left-handed clone of Lindholm, IMO we're either about the same or slightly better.

I don't disagree that, right now, Lindholm is playing better. I don't diagree he is more well rounded (though as a full time centre who knows).

The only thing I disagree with is that GMs would now draft him ahead on the basis of 1.25 years of play that's at this level, versus Monahan's track record.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't disagree that, right now, Lindholm is playing better. I don't diagree he is more well rounded (though as a full time centre who knows).

The only thing I disagree with is that GMs would now draft him ahead on the basis of 1.25 years of play that's at this level, versus Monahan's track record.

The issue is the past 1.25 years of play is by far the most relevant. GM's will prioritize more relevant play.

Do we not see players continually leaving the NHL after a bad season despite a long history of success? This suggest to me that GM's are very much focusing on recent history.

I mean on this board we see fans argue all the time that we shouldn't trade a player while their value is low. If GM's prioritize 6 years of production over recent history then this concept wouldn't exist. But recent history is the most relevant. To some extent I think the fans exaggerate. For example I think Gaudreau still has fantastic trade value despite looking like garbage this year.

It's not that I'm discounting what Monahan has done. It's that Lindholm has shown he's as good. He's developed into as good or better of a player. How they looked 3 years ago has very little to do with how good they are right now.

Over a season is not a small sample size. Players get signed to multi-year million dollar contracts based on their results from one season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The issue is the past 1.25 years of play is by far the most relevant. GM's will prioritize more relevant play.

Do we not see players continually leaving the NHL after a bad season despite a long history of success? This suggest to me that GM's are very much focusing on recent history.

I mean on this board we see fans argue all the time that we shouldn't trade a player while their value is low. If GM's prioritize 6 years of production over recent history then this concept wouldn't exist. But recent history is the most relevant. To some extent I think the fans exaggerate. For example I think Gaudreau still has fantastic trade value despite looking like garbage this year.

It's not that I'm discounting what Monahan has done. It's that Lindholm has shown he's as good. He's developed into as good or better of a player. How they looked 3 years ago has very little to do with how good they are right now.

Over a season is not a small sample size. Players get signed to multi-year million dollar contracts based on their results from one season.

I see as many players having good years after a bad one.

Anyway, I would place good money that a poll of GMs on a redraft would see Monahan ahead of Lindholm. It's moot anyway, there won't be one.

[Poe969]

Unpopular opinion, now is the time to blow it up.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

He played some time at centre in Carolina. And he’s looked capable here as well.

He may be one of our top two line centres within the next year, guess we’ll see.

Some, but barely. Peters was his coach in Carolina and he used him in the middle there about as much as he has here. Rarely if ever.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Rando

Some, but barely. Peters was his coach in Carolina and he used him in the middle there about as much as he has here. Rarely if ever.

"Hey Coach, can I play some centre?"

"Burn in Hades, M*****F*****!!!!!"

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Unpopular opinion, now is the time to blow it up.

Some people always think it's a good time to blow it up...the Blues are probably glad they didn't take that advice. Same with the Caps who "couldn't win in the playoffs"

Always look to improve...team is too young to blow up

[Vinny01]

I was talking to a buddy who is a Canucks fan today for the first time since the scandal broke. His opinion was this was only going to further bury the team and this only adds to the terrible slump they have been in.

I think at the end of the day this could be the time the team is able to shake their roughy start and come together as a group. I can only assume Ward was the good cop coach and the players are going to want to play for him. Peters has been exposed and no doubt he seemed to be losing the room as our star players struggle mightily.

If our top line starts producing the wins will start to pile up and this team will be back in the mix

[Roof-Daddy]

It might not be time to blow it up, but this coming off season it may be time for a major retool.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I was talking to a buddy who is a Canucks fan today for the first time since the scandal broke. His opinion was this was only going to further bury the team and this only adds to the terrible slump they have been in.

I think at the end of the day this could be the time the team is able to shake their roughy start and come together as a group. I can only assume Ward was the good cop coach and the players are going to want to play for him. Peters has been exposed and no doubt he seemed to be losing the room as our star players struggle mightily.

If our top line starts producing the wins will start to pile up and this team will be back in the mix

There is your problem

I'm sure Oiler fans think this will bury the Flames too

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Unpopular opinion, now is the time to blow it up.

It should be unpopular, its non-sensical.

Retool? Maybe.
Blow it up? That's literally crazy talk.