Russia invades Ukraine

[Azure]

What I'm wondering is if anyone actually doesn't think for one second that the US is not manipulating the hell out of Ukraine right now to get what they want?

It is the ultimate proxy war.

And not saying I don't support Ukraine in this fight, I do. But I feel at some point Ukraine might want to negotiate a deal, and the US won't let them.

[driveway]

I completely understand where it's coming from, but could we refrain from using language like "Orcs" and "Ivans"?

I am profoundly on the side of Ukraine and wish that the US, Canada, and our NATO allies would start saying things like "We're going to support as long as it takes to win" and to define winning as a full return to the borders established in 1992.

The language of war: Ivan, Jerry, Tommy, Charlie, etc. is specifically for the purpose of dehumanizing the enemy to make it easier for soldiers to kill when they need to. It strips away any kind of individual identity and replaces it with a bland group moniker. "Orc" is particuarly strong as it completely obliterates the humanity of the person onto whom it is placed.

I do not want to 'both sides' this war. The Russians a clearly wrong and need to be defeated. However, even if they are evil, they are not inhuman, and us sitting in our living rooms thousands of miles away don't need to dehumanize them. If a soldier feels the need to use this language in order to psychologically handle the situation in which they find themselves, sure. But on a hockey forum? It's kinda gross. I'd probaby not object to Huntingwhale or Pointman using languge like that, but I don't think any of the rest of us have that level of direct engagement with this conflict, regardless of how much of our day and media diet is engaged with consuming it.

[Fuzz]

I dunno, I've seen a lot of videos that show what Russian soldiers are doing is pretty inhuman. I think they've rightfully earned those titles.

[burn_this_city]

Ukrainians on twitter call them katsaps, which roughly translates to butchers.

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I dunno, I've seen a lot of videos that show what Russian soldiers are doing is pretty inhuman. I think they've rightfully earned those titles.

War is horrible lots of proxy wars all over world.look what the Israelis do every day to the Palestinians worse then apartheid

[burn_this_city]

Russian strategic aviation currently launching cruise missiles and shahed drones and we’re debating the terminology used to describe such people.

[JohnnyB]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1633548066753249280

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

https://twitter.com/user/status/1633548066753249280

Rules-based order, nothing to see here

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by driveway

I completely understand where it's coming from, but could we refrain from using language like "Orcs" and "Ivans"?

I am profoundly on the side of Ukraine and wish that the US, Canada, and our NATO allies would start saying things like "We're going to support as long as it takes to win" and to define winning as a full return to the borders established in 1992.

The language of war: Ivan, Jerry, Tommy, Charlie, etc. is specifically for the purpose of dehumanizing the enemy to make it easier for soldiers to kill when they need to. It strips away any kind of individual identity and replaces it with a bland group moniker. "Orc" is particuarly strong as it completely obliterates the humanity of the person onto whom it is placed.

I do not want to 'both sides' this war. The Russians a clearly wrong and need to be defeated. However, even if they are evil, they are not inhuman, and us sitting in our living rooms thousands of miles away don't need to dehumanize them. If a soldier feels the need to use this language in order to psychologically handle the situation in which they find themselves, sure. But on a hockey forum? It's kinda gross. I'd probaby not object to Huntingwhale or Pointman using languge like that, but I don't think any of the rest of us have that level of direct engagement with this conflict, regardless of how much of our day and media diet is engaged with consuming it.

I spent a good chunk of my life learning to kill Ivan.

So no.

[FlamesAddiction]

This sort of issue came up during the ICTY trials and appeals as well. In fact 2 high ranking military officials had their convictions overturned. They were convicted based on artillery records that showed a pretty high rate of civilian targets hit. On appeal, the lawyers successfully argued that they had better accuracy than the British and Americans had in Afghanistan when comparing their records, not even considering population density of the battle zone areas. Rather than open up that can of worms, both had their convictions overturned on appeal.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by driveway

I completely understand where it's coming from, but could we refrain from using language like "Orcs" and "Ivans"?

I am profoundly on the side of Ukraine and wish that the US, Canada, and our NATO allies would start saying things like "We're going to support as long as it takes to win" and to define winning as a full return to the borders established in 1992.

The language of war: Ivan, Jerry, Tommy, Charlie, etc. is specifically for the purpose of dehumanizing the enemy to make it easier for soldiers to kill when they need to. It strips away any kind of individual identity and replaces it with a bland group moniker. "Orc" is particuarly strong as it completely obliterates the humanity of the person onto whom it is placed.

I do not want to 'both sides' this war. The Russians a clearly wrong and need to be defeated. However, even if they are evil, they are not inhuman, and us sitting in our living rooms thousands of miles away don't need to dehumanize them. If a soldier feels the need to use this language in order to psychologically handle the situation in which they find themselves, sure. But on a hockey forum? It's kinda gross. I'd probaby not object to Huntingwhale or Pointman using languge like that, but I don't think any of the rest of us have that level of direct engagement with this conflict, regardless of how much of our day and media diet is engaged with consuming it.

Are you aware of the scale of the missile attacks happening right now? Putin is probably upset his offensive isn't going well in Bakhmut so he's launching a massive missile strike across Ukraine.



What are they if not Orcs?



They will be pariahs on the world stage for 100 years.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Are you aware of the scale of the missile attacks happening right now? Putin is probably upset his offensive isn't going well in Bakhmut so he's launching a massive missile strike across Ukraine.

What are they if not Orcs?

They will be pariahs on the world stage for 100 years.

I am as aware as most people who aren't in Ukraine of what is happening day-to-day. News about the war makes up a substantial portion of my daily media consumption.

I understand that many might disagree, but I am of the opinion that no act or series of acts renders a person 'inhuman.' I think it is dangerous and dismissive of us to think that way. It is much more important to recgonize that the perpetrators of evil are human, that the capacity for evil exists in each and every one of us at all times.

When we dehumanize the people who commit atrocities, whether it be on the battlefield or in the form of criminal acts, we absolve society of any role, we eliminate pathways of problem solving, we make it easier for people in the future to identify other groups to dehumanize.

I don't expect to find consenus, but I hope there is a majority who agree or could come to agree with this position. There are clearly those who will disagree, like undercoverbrother who has pointed out he spent a significant portion of his life undergoing specific training to allow him to dehumanize his potential enemy as he would have been one of the first sent into battle, should conflict have broken out. Fair enough. If you personally feel that certain actions disqualify someone from inclusion in the human race, I understand, but I disagree.

[Trojan97]

They deserve to be called far worse.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by driveway

I understand that many might disagree, but I am of the opinion that no act or series of acts renders a person 'inhuman.' I think it is dangerous and dismissive of us to think that way. It is much more important to recgonize that the perpetrators of evil are human, that the capacity for evil exists in each and every one of us at all times.

I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you I would never under any circumstance shoot an unarmed person nor would I ever rape a woman/child, as a pilot I would never drop a bomb on a school or a hospital for pregnant women either, nor would I fire a missile into a civilian apartment building, my bombs/missiles would miss those marks. I would rather put a bullet in my own head than to live life tortured with those memory's.

Like god, evil is imaginary but there are people that act "inhuman", most of these wired wrong people are in jails around the world, dead or should be dead.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I'm pretty sure the reason people are calling them those things is precisely because they are human. If they weren't, people wouldn't hold them morally blameworthy or consider these actions worthy of so much antipathy.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you I would never under any circumstance shoot an unarmed person nor would I ever rape a woman/child, as a pilot I would never drop a bomb on a school or a hospital for pregnant women either, nor would I fire a missile into a civilian apartment building, my bombs/missiles would miss those marks. I would rather put a bullet in my own head than to live life tortured with those memory's.

Like god, evil is imaginary but there are people that act "inhuman", most of these wired wrong people are in jails around the world, dead or should be dead.

Isn't it clear at this point that Russia isn't exactly picking the cream of the crop to go to the front line?

I mean I agree with you, and I'd like to think that I wouldn't do any of that stuff either, but I actually grew up in a society where there were some ethics and morality, but I'd imagine a lot of the people Russia is sending into the meat grinder have no regard for any of that.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Azure

Isn't it clear at this point that Russia isn't exactly picking the cream of the crop to go to the front line?

I mean I agree with you, and I'd like to think that I wouldn't do any of that stuff either, but I actually grew up in a society where there were some ethics and morality, but I'd imagine a lot of the people Russia is sending into the meat grinder have no regard for any of that.

Thus why I have no issue with calling them orcs or ivans, they're not wired the same as most normal humans around the world. There is some very deep rot in Russian society that allows so many of their men to behave like soulless psychopaths. The optimal scenario in my mind is that this war bankrupts Russia so hard that it collapses as a single entity, and the countries that emerge post-breakup look towards the west to rebuild their economies much like many of the post-USSR countries did. Maybe then their boys and young men will start growing up with empathy and compassion

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by driveway

I am as aware as most people who aren't in Ukraine of what is happening day-to-day. News about the war makes up a substantial portion of my daily media consumption.

I understand that many might disagree, but I am of the opinion that no act or series of acts renders a person 'inhuman.' I think it is dangerous and dismissive of us to think that way. It is much more important to recgonize that the perpetrators of evil are human, that the capacity for evil exists in each and every one of us at all times.

When we dehumanize the people who commit atrocities, whether it be on the battlefield or in the form of criminal acts, we absolve society of any role, we eliminate pathways of problem solving, we make it easier for people in the future to identify other groups to dehumanize.

I don't expect to find consenus, but I hope there is a majority who agree or could come to agree with this position. There are clearly those who will disagree, like undercoverbrother who has pointed out he spent a significant portion of his life undergoing specific training to allow him to dehumanize his potential enemy as he would have been one of the first sent into battle, should conflict have broken out. Fair enough. If you personally feel that certain actions disqualify someone from inclusion in the human race, I understand, but I disagree.

OK I guess. They are humans. I don't think anyone is under a delusion that Russians are not homo sapiens.

Should we launch an awareness campaign to get people to stop calling Putin a monster or a war monger or a criminal or a piece of #### and start calling him "Brother Putin" because he is indeed human and we don't want people to accidentally think otherwise?

Gimme a break bud.

I have all the respect in the world for Russians who oppose this war. But the bootlickers who support it are scum.

[Huntingwhale]

Most of the Ukrainians I know call them Orcs. It's their land being invaded, raped, pillaged and citizens kidnapped. They are the ones fighting to win, as option B is the genocide of their people. Therefore, if they want to call them Orcs, they are Orcs.

I can appreciate what driveway is saying though, as it's a fine line at times with the name calling and remembering that these perps are also human beings like the rest of us. It's important to remember all the atrocities of the past and it was ALL perpetuated by humans, not mystical magical creatures. At the same time, we see just how savage, brutal, murderous and straight up evil the russians are. It's human nature to react negatively to see something evil and assigning names or labels is part of that.

The time for going over all the aspects of humanizing/dehumanizing can be done after the war is done. Right now, if a UA gunner needs to label a group of russians he's about to mow down with a machine gun or a drone attack as orcs to make it easier to pull the trigger, then have at it; they be Orcs.

[JohnnyB]

How many Pointmans are there that didn't make it out, and how many wives and kids of Pointmans that didn't make it out?

Maybe instead of 'orc' or 'Ivan' people should be calling them 'Pointman' when laughing/cheering at a drone video of someone being blown up.