Time for a call-up from the Wranglers!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Our 4th line gets that 10-12 minutes, if you are going to be stubborn and roll 4 lines when it doesn't work, I would rather have talented players getting those minutes. Rolling out junk like Lucic, Rooney, Ritchie and Lewis doesn't help the team or create any offence. I don't actually mind Lewis, but the rest shouldn't be playing.

Not the argument I'm making.

Even said above the argument that the line disparity is too tight is valid.

I'm saying if you bring up kids and play them at Rooney's ice level (8 minutes), or even Richie (10) you aren't developing them and you're putting more pressure on balancing the lines exasperating the issue you're bringing up.

[Naitix]

When we get back to Calgary - waive Rooney, bring up Phillips, give him 5-8 games in the top 9 to see if he sticks:

Hub - Lindholm - Phillips
Ruzicka - Kadri - Toffoli
Mang - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic/Ritchie - Dube - Lewis/Ritchie

Or, if Sutter wants to keep Ruzicka with Lindholm/Toffoli:

Ruzicka - Lindholm - Toffoli
Hub - Kadri - Phillips
Mang - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic/Ritchie - Dube - Lewis/Ritchie

Also, could try Phillips with Ruzicka in between Kadri as they had great chemistry in the AHL.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Naitix

When we get back to Calgary - waive Rooney, bring up Phillips, give him 5-8 games in the top 9 to see if he sticks:

Hub - Lindholm - Phillips
Ruzicka - Kadri - Toffoli
Mang - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic/Ritchie - Dube - Lewis/Ritchie

Or, if Sutter wants to keep Ruzicka with Lindholm/Toffoli:

Ruzicka - Lindholm - Toffoli
Hub - Kadri - Phillips
Mang - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic/Ritchie - Dube - Lewis/Ritchie

Also, could try Phillips with Ruzicka in between Kadri as they had great chemistry in the AHL.

You're demoting Dube after goals in back to back games?

[Naitix]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're demoting Dube after goals in back to back games?

There is still 2 games before they get back to Calgary so if he keeps it up then I would not demote him. But I do not think he has done anything particularly different in his games, he just got a bit more puck luck. Another option for demotion would be Coleman, honestly, I do not particularly care about who gets demoted to 4th line, it is all interchangeable each game

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're demoting Dube after goals in back to back games?

prospects are always better

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Naitix

There is still 2 games before they get back to Calgary so if he keeps it up then I would not demote him. But I do not think he has done anything particularly different in his games, he just got a bit more puck luck. Another option for demotion would be Coleman, honestly, I do not particularly care about who gets demoted to 4th line, it is all interchangeable each game

If you think Phillips is better than Dube or Coleman, I don't know what to tell you

[Naitix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If you think Phillips is better than Dube or Coleman, I don't know what to tell you

How many times have you seen Phillips play? They are different kind of players and I absolutely think that Phillips has better offensive ability than Dube or Coleman. He is a better passer, better zone entry player and sees the ice way better, which meshes better for a top 6 role - or at least has potential to work in the top 6. The aspects of the game that Phillips lacks in will be compensated by his linemates, you do not need 3 forecheckers on the line - you also need players that have offensive creativity

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Naitix

How many times have you seen Phillips play? They are different kind of players and I absolutely think that Phillips has better offensive ability than Dube or Coleman. He is a better passer, better zone entry player and sees the ice way better, which meshes better for a top 6 role - or at least has potential to work in the top 6. The aspects of the game that Phillips lacks in will be compensated by his linemates, you do not need 3 forecheckers on the line - you also need players that have offensive creativity

Lots.

If Phillips is called up, he will be expected to play the same way that the other forwards are being expected to play. Fans seem to think that our forwards are not create, and Phillips will be more creative. That is just not the case.

Do I think he can contribute at the NHL level? Yes. Is he a better player than Dube or Coleman? No.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Naitix

How many times have you seen Phillips play? They are different kind of players and I absolutely think that Phillips has better offensive ability than Dube or Coleman. He is a better passer, better zone entry player and sees the ice way better, which meshes better for a top 6 role - or at least has potential to work in the top 6. The aspects of the game that Phillips lacks in will be compensated by his linemates, you do not need 3 forecheckers on the line - you also need players that have offensive creativity

For being such a monumentally more creative player than Dube Phillips sure took a lot more time finding his offense in the AHL.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[Naitix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Lots.

If Phillips is called up, he will be expected to play the same way that the other forwards are being expected to play. Fans seem to think that our forwards are not create, and Phillips will be more creative. That is just not the case.

Do I think he can contribute at the NHL level? Yes. Is he a better player than Dube or Coleman? No.

Sure, he will be expected to play the same way as other forwards when away from the puck, but once you have the puck on your stick in the offensive zone, it will be all up to him what he decides to do with it. There is absolutely no reason not to give him a chance in the top 6, what are you worried about? Breaking up the lines that can barely get any high danger shots on net? Being worse defensively when we already give up great chances every game and need to get bailed out by our goalies? If Phillips comes into the top 6 for a small number of games sure there is a chance it won't work but it's not like we are a top team, we are barely in the playoffs. It does not hurt to try different players

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Naitix

Sure, he will be expected to play the same way as other forwards when away from the puck, but once you have the puck on your stick in the offensive zone, it will be all up to him what he decides to do with it. There is absolutely no reason not to give him a chance in the top 6, what are you worried about? Breaking up the lines that can barely get any high danger shots on net? Being worse defensively when we already give up great chances every game and need to get bailed out by our goalies? If Phillips comes into the top 6 for a small number of games sure there is a chance it won't work but it's not like we are a top team, we are barely in the playoffs. It does not hurt to try different players

I am not worried about anything. If they want to give Phillips a go, that is fine by me. In fact, I welcome it.

I am simply saying that your expectations are unreasonable. You are holding real NHL players accountable for the fact that Sutter has them playing a certain way. They are not all dumping it in because they aren't creative, they are dumping it in because they are being told to.

If you put Dube or Coleman in the AHL, they will instantly be among the best players in the league - they are too good for that league. I am not saying Phillips isn't good enough, I am challenging your assertion that Phillips is better than them.

[Naitix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am not worried about anything. If they want to give Phillips a go, that is fine by me. In fact, I welcome it.

I am simply saying that your expectations are unreasonable. You are holding real NHL players accountable for the fact that Sutter has them playing a certain way. They are not all dumping it in because they aren't creative, they are dumping it in because they are being told to.

If you put Dube or Coleman in the AHL, they will instantly be among the best players in the league - they are too good for that league. I am not saying Phillips isn't good enough, I am challenging your assertion that Phillips is better than them.

Right, I see. I agree that Dube and Coleman would dominate the AHL if they were in it. I just think that Phillips offers more offensive ability that would translate to the NHL better than Dube's has, just based on the fact that I have seen him play a lot and his game would work at a higher level imo. The biggest concern to me is if Sutter will let him play his game. I would bet Phillips will be in the NHL next season, just not with the Flames if they do not give him the chance this year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Naitix

Right, I see. I agree that Dube and Coleman would dominate the AHL if they were in it. I just think that Phillips offers more offensive ability that would translate to the NHL better than Dube's has, just based on the fact that I have seen him play a lot and his game would work at a higher level imo. The biggest concern to me is if Sutter will let him play his game. I would bet Phillips will be in the NHL next season, just not with the Flames if they do not give him the chance this year.

I personally don't think Sutter has a coaching technique that limits offensive flair.

I think he has some rules on the ice that avoid breakdowns, turnovers.

The grey zone is an area that most coaches use to make sure players are aware of a higher impact of a turnover. I know when I coached I always said do what you want (dump in, keep it) but don't turn it over ... up to the player. If it's a limited chance dump it.

He probably also ensures they have a forward high, but that doesn't stifle offence it creates it because it supports a pinching defenseman.

[Naitix]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I personally don't think Sutter has a coaching technique that limits offensive flair.

I think he has some rules on the ice that avoid breakdowns, turnovers.

The grey zone is an area that most coaches use to make sure players are aware of a higher impact of a turnover. I know when I coached I always said do what you want (dump in, keep it) but don't turn it over ... up to the player. If it's a limited chance dump it.

He probably also ensures they have a forward high, but that doesn't stifle offence it creates it because it supports a pinching defenseman.

I do not think Sutter's system limits offensive ability, I think the guys right now are afraid of making mistakes which results in them playing simpler game without much creativity. One of the most important things in hockey is confidence, and this year's Flames do not look like confident players to me.

[Moneyhands23]

I think the team may look at how Gilbert has come in and added something. Maybe just maybe that may make it at least tempting to play a call up for 2 or 3 games.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Didn't we talk about this 8 weeks ago?

Pro hockey has about 46 minutes of five on five hockey. Over the past few weeks we've had many criticize Sutter (and I get this argument) for making the disparity between ice time too tight.

Now you want the fourth line to eat up another 5 minutes?

This isn't about who's the best fourth liner, it's about developing kids in roles where they can play and not sit on the fourth line.

If you call up a solid AHL line of great young talent and take away ice time from your top players you hurt your team. If you call up a solid AHL line of great young talent and stifle them with 7 minutes a night you kill their development.

This isn't a Calgary thing, it's roster construction.

Get an injury and then a guy like Pelletier has to play top nine minutes. He succeeds, and you make room for him.

But you can't fit a 12 minute fourth line into the NHL roster balance, and it's not about mindlessly loving plugs or veteran players.

This is all fine and good but a guy like Lucic — who, by all measures, has not played NHL-calibre hockey this season — is already averaging 10:45 per game at 5v5. More than 11 minutes in all situations.

So the Flames are coming pretty close to fitting a 12-minute fourth line into the NHL roster balance. And while I understand the idea of not wanting to put Pelletier in a small role — although it didn't hurt Mangiapane, their most successful AHL call-up in years — a guy like Phillips can't keep developing forever. If Darryl doesn't like him, fine, but he also really shouldn't like what Lucic is currently bringing. There's not much justification for keeping him in the lineup beyond big being good and vague notions about the value of a physical presence.

Not every team puts all its spare parts on the fourth line to be run over at five-on-five. If Darryl wants to play his fourth line that much, I think it should have more upside. Right now, it's not working.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

This is all fine and good but a guy like Lucic — who, by all measures, has not played NHL-calibre hockey this season — is already averaging 10:45 per game at 5v5. More than 11 minutes in all situations.

So the Flames are coming pretty close to fitting a 12-minute fourth line into the NHL roster balance. And while I understand the idea of not wanting to put Pelletier in a small role — although it didn't hurt Mangiapane, their most successful AHL call-up in years — a guy like Phillips can't keep developing forever. If Darryl doesn't like him, fine, but he also really shouldn't like what Lucic is currently bringing. There's not much justification for keeping him in the lineup beyond big being good and vague notions about the value of a physical presence.

Not every team puts all its spare parts on the fourth line to be run over at five-on-five. If Darryl wants to play his fourth line that much, I think it should have more upside. Right now, it's not working.

There needs to be a skill injection to this team. It’s quite clear watching the past few weeks that this is a system/all effort team that is short on speed and skill, at least with the stellar competition we’ve been up against. We have more of that on the farm than is on the bottom half of our current forwards corpse. It’s worth a shot for the reasons you’ve consistently outlined.

The mix currently looks ill-fitted and awkward up front. More like a playoff tweener than a team that is, on paper, supposed to compete for home ice and a Stanley cup.

[Bingo]

For kicks I scraped the NHL forwards and looked at all teams for deployment averages.

Flames use their non top nine forwards an average of 10.4 minutes per game. The NHL average is 9.9. They are ranked 12th.

Detroit is 1st at 11.1
Edmonton 31st at 9.1

Pretty tight honestly, I thought Sutter was averaging ice time out more than most.

Doesn't speak to quality or age of the fourth line though.

Looking at all four lines though I think the problem may emerge. Sutter is 32nd in top six deployment, and 12th in bottom six deployment.

So not leaning on the fourth line more than most but certainly using the top six less than anyone.

Interesting anyway.

[TheScorpion]

I think we do typically overstate the Flames' own deficiencies relative to the rest of the league. But I also think the league, on the whole, has blind spots.

Those are interesting numbers ... thanks for finding those.

[Jiri Hrdina]

So if I understand that data correctly that would suggest he leans on his 3rd line more than others? Moreso than that he leans on his 4th more than ohters?