You think a two game suspension takes away the threat of retribution?
Maybe. I think it’s enough for Green to go into the room and say “the suspension is not ideal but it’s something and let’s focus on the game”. It’s what the NHL needs to do if we want to stop fights. No one feels like justice is fully served.
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Positively surprised. Seems fair and helps set a precedent that this isn't an okay move. As for the more general discussion, to me the amount of physicality you can do within the rules is plenty enough. You can still throw devastating hits, puck battles are still physical affairs that often require strength to win. And there's a lot of hits thrown still.
The way I see it, cracking down on stuff like this only improves physicality elsewhere. If you can't physically contain a player with your hands (by slamming them on their back for example) or your stick, you're going to have to use your body or lose. It means you have to keep up and work hard. That means more good, physical hockey plays, not less. If you want to intimidate someone, you have to throw more body checks instead of one with a body slam added to the end.
Dirty moves like Mathesons body slam are a short cut for players who don't want to put the work in to reach their goal playing actual hockey.
Last edited by Itse; 10-16-2018 at 02:25 AM.
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I think most of us want the same thing—a physical game, but one in which the skill of players like Pettersson has the opportunity to sine, and one in which players are protected and their long term health is taken seriously. The key here is striking the right balance between all of these things.
On a related note if the Canucks end up drafting Hughes they will have both Hughes brothers along with Pettersson on their roster. Those are three VERY small players.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I really think we can have hitting in the game without needlessly injuring players, and I think there's a pretty logical solution to all of this: officiating.
It's high time the NHL looked at what's available to them in 2018, and start calling the game accurately for once. It's especially puzzling when the refs, the players on the bench, the fans in the arena and everyone at home are all watching replays of what happened. So everyone will know what should have been done, but if it wasn't called in the moment it's left to be punished after the game... maybe. I would love to be a fly on the wall when the NHL explains why they're going to continue doing a crappy job at effectively calling a game when this subject inevitably comes up.
Anyone watching the NFL will be supremely aware of how terrible the game can be when over officiated, so if this is to work you have to actually do a good job. We are rightfully fearful whenever officiating gets involved in any sport, but for once it would be great to see them do it right and help the game along instead of hinder it.
So far, however, we've heard good things about the video reffing the World Cup used:
You can have a video room where the refs could potentially discuss this and come to a consensus on how to handle it on the ice. I could see a horn going off to interrupt the game, or a light in situations like this to tell everyone the play is being reviewed. Either way, it could be injected into today's game very easily.
In this case, they'd watch Matheson get beat in the corner and follow the kid to the boards. They would notice that Matheson kept a pretty sharp eye on him when they play was away from Elias - seemingly more than most defenders would need to normally. You'd almost think that he was staring at him in anger... before he injured him. I think you take him out of the game and give the Canucks a substantial powerplay. DOPS can handle the rest if they need to, but I think getting the boot AND costing your team mightily does far more than post-game suspensions. There's a lot to be said for what players are willing to do in the moment if the consequences are deferred (and intermittent).
Getting the correct call will speed up the game too. We're watching a game where players are flying around hard ice with knives on their feet, and swinging an axe that sends a murder disc at high velocities. Injuries will happen from time-to-time, and there's an opportunity for officiating to get that right as well. Someone who can look back, see multiple angles, see how the play developed, and is aware of the narrative this game has been taking so far is going to have an opportunity to make a pretty accurate decision up there. If Pettersson was injured on the 1st hit, and there was no body-slam - then there's no penalty, regardless of how injured the kid is. The Canucks just have to realize this 150lb kid isn't ready to play at the NHL level. You can score, but the game is more than that. I can probably set a pretty sweet luge time too, but if I don't know what I'm doing I'm probably going to get hurt.
Again with the NFL, but we see players fearful of tackling a QB and being penalized for it. The result has been a much worse game, and we hear much of the same with hockey and hitting. But I think getting the calls right will open up the play more, if anything. If a player knows he can go to the boards with another player and not be penalized for accidental injuries, I think they play a bit more free. You have control of how much you respect the players on the ice, and the guys out there who have an issue keeping their knees in are going to be seeing a lot of the locker room. Good. Players are also going to be playing much bigger when they know the predators are being watched too.
I also don't think we lose Johnny to a broken wrist, either. Someone engaged in that game should have noticed that was the Wild's gameplan to hack Johnny, and either prevented it or punished it for what it was. That Staal wack is a lot more intentional if you're seeing (as the fans do) what's going on. I'm very confident that taking him out of the game was the goal. Just look at what wasn't called that game:
But you keep the hard hits and you keep the intimidation and speed in the game. But when idiots out there decide to take liberties, you make sure you can address that immediately. I really think that goes a long way to taking fighting out of the game, removing a teams need to retaliate throughout the game, and you prevent these careless and dangerous actions by ensuring they are addressed and penalized in the game they're attached to.
Last edited by Split98; 10-16-2018 at 09:49 AM.
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To do the above you need to first address the fact that the officials in the NHL are ridiculously inconsistent and definitely play favourites at times. I have said it many times, you will never have decent officiating in the NHL until there is some kind of discipline in place for the officials
To do the above you need to first address the fact that the officials in the NHL are ridiculously inconsistent and definitely play favourites at times. I have said it many times, you will never have decent officiating in the NHL until there is some kind of discipline in place for the officials
Yeah, I'd lump that all in with 'do it right'. The mistakes that we see in leagues across NA are mind boggling, but at some point someone has to actually start doing a good job. All the tools to fix this problem are right there IMO.
A refusal to adjust and repeated terrible officiating shouldn't be a given
I really think we can have hitting in the game without needlessly injuring players, and I think there's a pretty logical solution to all of this: officiating.
It's high time the NHL looked at what's available to them in 2018, and start calling the game accurately for once. It's especially puzzling when the refs, the players on the bench, the fans in the arena and everyone at home are all watching replays of what happened. So everyone will know what should have been done, but if it wasn't called in the moment it's left to be punished after the game... maybe. I would love to be a fly on the wall when the NHL explains why they're going to continue doing a crappy job at effectively calling a game when this subject inevitably comes up.
Anyone watching the NFL will be supremely aware of how terrible the game can be when over officiated, so if this is to work you have to actually do a good job. We are rightfully fearful whenever officiating gets involved in any sport, but for once it would be great to see them do it right and help the game along instead of hinder it.
So far, however, we've heard good things about the video reffing the World Cup used:
You can have a video room where the refs could potentially discuss this and come to a consensus on how to handle it on the ice. I could see a horn going off to interrupt the game, or a light in situations like this to tell everyone the play is being reviewed. Either way, it could be injected into today's game very easily.
In this case, they'd watch Matheson get beat in the corner and follow the kid to the boards. They would notice that Matheson kept a pretty sharp eye on him when they play was away from Elias - seemingly more than most defenders would need to normally. You'd almost think that he was staring at him in anger... before he injured him. I think you take him out of the game and give the Canucks a substantial powerplay. DOPS can handle the rest if they need to, but I think getting the boot AND costing your team mightily does far more than post-game suspensions. There's a lot to be said for what players are willing to do in the moment if the consequences are deferred (and intermittent).
Getting the correct call will speed up the game too. We're watching a game where players are flying around hard ice with knives on their feet, and swinging an axe that sends a murder disc at high velocities. Injuries will happen from time-to-time, and there's an opportunity for officiating to get that right as well. Someone who can look back, see multiple angles, see how the play developed, and is aware of the narrative this game has been taking so far is going to have an opportunity to make a pretty accurate decision up there. If Pettersson was injured on the 1st hit, and there was no body-slam - then there's no penalty, regardless of how injured the kid is. The Canucks just have to realize this 150lb kid isn't ready to play at the NHL level. You can score, but the game is more than that. I can probably set a pretty sweet luge time too, but if I don't know what I'm doing I'm probably going to get hurt.
Again with the NFL, but we see players fearful of tackling a QB and being penalized for it. The result has been a much worse game, and we hear much of the same with hockey and hitting. But I think getting the calls right will open up the play more, if anything. If a player knows he can go to the boards with another player and not be penalized for accidental injuries, I think they play a bit more free. You have control of how much you respect the players on the ice, and the guys out there who have an issue keeping their knees in are going to be seeing a lot of the locker room. Good. Players are also going to be playing much bigger when they know the predators are being watched too.
But you keep the hard hits and you keep the intimidation and speed in the game. But when idiots out there decide to take liberties, you make sure you can address that immediately. I really think that goes a long way to taking fighting out of the game, removing a teams need to retaliate throughout the game, and you prevent these careless and dangerous actions by ensuring they are addressed and penalized in the game they're attached to.
A few comments on soccer officiating; FIFA has put a ton of work into developing the quality of officiating. Referees are well prepped and trained, and the whole process of officiating has been under scrutiny. Rules have been looked at from the perspective of what is easy to call. And above all else, they avoid micromanaging the calls. The rules for physicality are still very generalized in soccer, and a lot of stuff is (at least theoretically) a judgment call the ref is allowed to make based on how he sees things. Even when they added the video reviews, they made it an additional tool for the one guy still making the final call.
I feel this is the way the NHL should go. Dial back the amount of different infractions and replace them with fewer rules that cover more, train the refs, remove the extra referee, add video reviews and after all that trust the refs to make the calls as they think is best. I feel that it would fit a really quick and physical game like hockey even better to not list every possible wrong way of being physical, but thinking up more general guidelines of what is and isn't okay.
In a hockey rink it takes a few seconds for a ref to watch the replay, so video reviews should be super easy to implement. (And give them big enough screens, what they use now are ridiculously small.)
But I fear the NHL will go the way NFL has gone. The NFL rulebook has become such a ridiculous monstrosity that not even professional coaches and players know all the rules anymore, and it's just not good for the game.
Last edited by Itse; 10-16-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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I didn't know mods could ignore people, but here we are!
Replying to Textcritic, and Kypreos I guess, we all want a physical game. If Matheson comes in and pastes Pettersson to the boards there and he is still concussed from just that, then so be it. It wasn't a dirty hit. Elias has the puck and turns his back fairly to protect the puck. I never want to see that taken out of the game. Everything after that was straight garbage and not needed.
I didn't know mods could ignore people, but here we are!
What are you talking about?
Quote:
Replying to Textcritic, and Kypreos I guess, we all want a physical game. If Matheson comes in and pastes Pettersson to the boards there and he is still concussed from just that, then so be it. It wasn't a dirty hit. Elias has the puck and turns his back fairly to protect the puck. I never want to see that taken out of the game. Everything after that was straight garbage and not needed.
I completely agree with you, but there are a bunch of posters who are leery about setting the line in the same place that you and I would. Some—like Jiri—would perhaps go even further and set much stricter rules on hitting.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Suspension or no suspension, whatever. But my main thing on this topic is this:
Pettersson looked like a player who was out there thinking “well this league is easy” and was super comfortable dominating offensively. The way he went and got that puck though.... Gaudreau would have never done that. You are small. A small person in a league of monsters. It is your responsibility to avoid putting yourself in dangerous situations. Gaudreau doesn’t stop when a puck is on the end boards like that. He either takes it and keeps moving, pokes it away, or quickly grabs it and cuts back. Because he know if he gets hit, legal or not, it’s going to hurt.
He’s gotta be more aware out there.
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That line has moved. The line can't be in the same place it used to be because we know more about how the human brain works, or doesn't work, when it gets hit hard. We need to come to terms with the fact that our knowledge of the bad stuff is coming quicker than our ability to protect, prevent or cure it and need to adjust accordingly.
That line has moved. The line can't be in the same place it used to be because we know more about how the human brain works, or doesn't work, when it gets hit hard. We need to come to terms with the fact that our knowledge of the bad stuff is coming quicker than our ability to protect, prevent or cure it and need to adjust accordingly.
(...even if I wanted to, why would I block someone so hilarious as you?)
Quote:
That line has moved. The line can't be in the same place it used to be because we know more about how the human brain works, or doesn't work, when it gets hit hard. We need to come to terms with the fact that our knowledge of the bad stuff is coming quicker than our ability to protect, prevent or cure it and need to adjust accordingly.
Again, you have no complaint from me.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I don't think size is even an issue. Is Pettersson any more fragile or smaller than Gretzky when he came up? Have you seen how skinny Gretzky was when he first started with the Oilers?
This never happened to Gretzky because you knew you were going to have to answer for it. It was black and white. You give Gretzky an extra push after a check, well here's McSorley or Brown or Semenko to give the same to Kent Nilson or Hakan Loob or even Tim Hunter.
Now it's grey because of the instigator, because of the elimination of enforcers. Guys will give the extra shot, the extra unnecessary shot because they think "nothing will probably come of it, i'm protected by the rules".
I'm not saying Gretzky never got targeted, of course he did, but it was all just face washes and whacks and slashes and mean words, it was "measured", it was never over the line, because you knew what happened if you crossed it. The line is crossed regularly now in today's NHL because the grey has replaced the black and white.
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