[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

It's really not even a CSEC issue.

With a $50 million cap, every team in the league could afford their own building.

Yes, and if the cap was zero, they could afford their own buildings plus a pink pony for every season-ticket holder. So what? There is no product without the players, and they have shown they are willing to go a year without pay before they will take a bad deal.

So I guess you get to pay NHL season ticket prices to watch an empty arena, serene in the knowledge that no public money was spent on it. Sounds fun.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The status quo is a building that will eventually collapse if big money isn't spent on structural repairs.

Are you sure a new arena has ‘hardly any positives’ over that?

- More efficient operations
- Nicer locker rooms
- Nicer concourses

...that's about all that comes to mind. And it's all offset by higher ticket prices and higher initial capital cost compared to current...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

- More efficient operations
- Nicer locker rooms
- Nicer concourses

...that's about all that comes to mind.

- Roof not starting to crumble
- Structure not compromised by massive flooding
- Won't require $50–100 million in repairs next decade just to stay open

If these things don't come to your mind, maybe your mind needs to step up its game.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Yes, and if the cap was zero, they could afford their own buildings plus a pink pony for every season-ticket holder. So what? There is no product without the players, and they have shown they are willing to go a year without pay before they will take a bad deal.

So I guess you get to pay NHL season ticket prices to watch an empty arena, serene in the knowledge that no public money was spent on it. Sounds fun.

There is no product without a building either. Players need a place to play, no?

Businesses must fund payroll AND facilities out of their revenue. And there is plenty of revenue.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

But how much does moving two blocks north and adding maybe another half-dozen events really move the needle?

The building is just a small part of the overall picture. Having the new BMO convention centre and redeveloping the stampede grounds will have an impact on future conventions, future concerts, future Stampeds, improve the entire area and make it more useable year round. The saddledome is not a part of that plan, it's the antipodes of the plan. The city doesn't want it, CMLC doesn't want it and yes, the Flames don't want it. So the Saddledome's time is limited, it's just a matter of when, not if it gets demolished and replaced by something.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

- Roof not starting to crumble
- Structure not compromised by massive flooding
- Won't require $50–100 million in repairs next decade just to stay open

If these things don't come to your mind, maybe your mind needs to step up its game.

I'm not arguing it doesn't need to be replaced sooner than later. I'm refuting the argument that a new building will create new vibrancy.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

The building is just a small part of the overall picture. Having the new BMO convention centre and redeveloping the stampede grounds will have an impact on future conventions, future concerts, future Stampeds, improve the entire area and make it more useable year round. The saddledome is not a part of that plan, it's the antipodes of the plan. The city doesn't want it, CMLC doesn't want it and yes, the Flames don't want it. So the Saddledome's time is limited, it's just a matter of when, not if it gets demolished and replaced by something.

This is why the design of the actual arena is so critical. Opponents of the arena will argue moving it two blocks north will not revitalize the area because the Saddledome failed to revitalize Victoria Park when it was built in the early &0’s. The key difference is the Saddledome is extremely hostile to the pedestrian realm, no matter how nice it looks in the skyline.

If the new arena is designed with the same mindset and design principals of arenas of the past, it will no doubt fail to revitalize Victoria Park as the Saddledome did. If the new arena is nothing more than a box with blank walls and no street level interaction like the current building, it will fail miserably and repeat mistakes of the past. This is why it is critical the new building contain ground level retail, restaurants, and patios that are open year round to actually attract people outside of game days. The arena needs to be designed to be open and inviting from the outside and actually enhance and blend into the community, not be an imposing fortress. This is why the addition of the parkade gets me so fired up because they are literally killing two sides of the pedestrian realm with it.

Rogers Place in Edmonton, while visually interesting, is actually a disaster when it comes to the pedestrian realm. It is incredibly sterile and imposing. No street level retail or interaction. Everything is opaque and you can’t even look inside the building. The only pedestrian element is across the street in their enclosed plaza that actually has little connection to the actual arena.

I think the design Calgary unveiled is close and has some great elements (Olympic Ave. retail corridor) but falls short with the parkade and an overall sub standard aesthetic design with too many elements and facade styles.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by The Familia

This is why the design of the actual arena is so critical. Opponents of the arena will argue moving it two blocks north will not revitalize the area because the Saddledome failed to revitalize Victoria Park when it was built in the early &0’s. The key difference is the Saddledome is extremely hostile to the pedestrian realm, no matter how nice it looks in the skyline.

If the new arena is designed with the same mindset and design principals of arenas of the past, it will no doubt fail to revitalize Victoria Park as the Saddledome did. If the new arena is nothing more than a box with blank walls and no street level interaction like the current building, it will fail miserably and repeat mistakes of the past. This is why it is critical the new building contain ground level retail, restaurants, and patios that are open year round to actually attract people outside of game days. The arena needs to be designed to be open and inviting from the outside and actually enhance and blend into the community, not be an imposing fortress. This is why the addition of the parkade gets me so fired up because they are literally killing two sides of the pedestrian realm with it.

Rogers Place in Edmonton, while visually interesting, is actually a disaster when it comes to the pedestrian realm. It is incredibly sterile and imposing. No street level retail or interaction. Everything is opaque and you can’t even look inside the building. The only pedestrian element is across the street in their enclosed plaza that actually has little connection to the actual arena.

I think the design Calgary unveiled is close and has some great elements (Olympic Ave. retail corridor) but falls short with the parkade and an overall sub standard aesthetic design with too many elements and facade styles.

I agree with most of this, but the big challenge will remain to be the lack of sustainable/incidental foot-traffic to the area. It will remain an event-based-destination only - whereas the most vibrant places have more broadly demanded destinations AND general human traffic throughout the day.

There are factors that make the area function quite well for event hosting, but it will simply never be 'on-the-way' between anything. A team-store and sports-bar aren't going to change much, though they should absolutely aim for the best possible public realm design.

There are very few examples of arenas 'creating' legitimate street level engagement, but some at least manage to not totally drain any potential that does exist.

It's a much longer post and I've rambled on about it before, but I actually do think it could have a much bigger public realm impact if it moved just two blocks further north, where the mass of the building could serve to mitigate the most hostile barrier in town (CPR Tracks) and improve the connection from EV to Rivers District.