Climate change and human responsibility

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by stone hands

that's what the people in the future think at first, but its due to some wacky time travel looping stuff - the 12 monkeys just released a bunch of animals around the time the virus spread. its a crazy scientist who is acting alone who pulls the trigger so to speak

this post has nothing to do with climate change but i wanted to comment on a great movie

Thanks, forgot that's how it went. Will need to re-watch!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If that's what you got from the article, that's on you. I see the political climate changing rapidly, and changing in ways that aren't good. Schools are churning out millions of kids that honestly believe that the world will end in a few years if we don't all stop all activity immediately.

Well, this is completely untrue. Millennials are a little more vested in the future than most people, because they have to face the world we are leaving behind for them. They are the generation that will have to try and resolve the problems we leave them, so you'll have to forgive them if they want less lip service and discussion, and a little more action.

https://www.axios.com/poll-millennia...ca93aa3b7.html

They actually seem to have a pretty good perspective and are open to talking about the complex action, so long as some immediate action takes place to put a drag on what is seen as the root cause of the problem.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...-in-our-hands/

That, in itself, isn't that big of a deal. But what is a big deal, and big concern, is how the media, and society is reacting to it.

And how is society reacting to the issue that is a cause for concern? The fact that people are finally coming to the realization that it is happening and what the cause is?

Reasonable discussion is being aggressively replaced with bleating. Anyone that says anything that isn't currently vogue gets "SCIENCE" as a response. That is not what science is.

What is "reasonable discussion?" I've seen you throw this out several times, but have not seen you bring anything to table in the form of reasonable discussion. The link you recently provided is far from "reasonable discussion." It is the very bleating you complain about! And yes, SCIENCE sure beats the crap out of the mess from the blog you posted.

And sadly, you KNOW that. Yet you choose to put it aside and join the bleating whenever you read or hear something you don't like.

And you do the exact same thing, especially when someone posts something you don't like. The difference is that I actually try and make the effort to disassemble the issue and show errors in things posted or ways that counter the narratives being spun. I know its frustrating for some of you - because I use SCIENCE and all - but that is actually how rhetorical engagement is supposed to work. If I think you're stance is weak, so I'm going to provide facts that hammer that point home and hopefully correct the incorrect perceptions or beliefs. Maybe try and do the same by presenting your argument so this "reasonable discussion" can take place. That's all I expect and ask.

[rubecube]

So this is an example of one of the issues we're going to have to reckon with in the coming years. The people of Tuvalu are rapidly losing their home and the islands will likely be gone within the next 10-15 years if sea levels continue to rise. It's a relatively small island and number of people, but it's still 11,000 people that will no longer have homes and essentially be stateless.

International law is currently ill-equipped to deal with this reality. There is nothing in any of the current refugee conventions that stipulate accommodations for climate refugees, which means that no country is under any obligation to accept these people when they're forced to flee their homes.

I'm aware the article is from May but Tuvalu has been bracing for this for several years now.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...climate-change

[Ozy_Flame]

Don't forget about Nauru, the Marshall Islands, the Maldives, and other small island nations. Of course these countries wouldn't register on the radar of major governments or people who don't live directly in these areas, so complacency will reign supreme on this issue until large-scale emigration begins to happen. Here's hoping the UN or other agencies can prepare for this coming reality.

I was in the Pacific Islands a few years ago, and there was a sense of gloom and doom about it from a few of the locals when we were there. Even in Fiji where the risk isn't as dire, they were pretty adamant they were just going to get ignored on the climate change issue because of their place in the world.

From the article rubecube posted, this sentence particularly breaks my heart on the matter:

Nausaleta Setani, Frank’s aunt, sleeps beside the lagoon at night in the wooden shack, using a float buoy as a pillow. Initially a non-believer in climate change, like many older people on the island, Setani has slowly become convinced of the science as her daily life becomes tougher with every erratic movement of the sea.

“The weather is changing very quickly, day to day, hour to hour,” says Setani, 54, paradoxically soothed and disturbed by the ocean lapping metres away from her hut.

“I have been learning the things that are happening are the result of man, especially [from] other countries. It makes me sad. But I understand other countries do what is best for their people. I am from a small country. All I want is for the bigger countries to respect us, and think of our lives.”

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So this is an example of one of the issues we're going to have to reckon with in the coming years. The people of Tuvalu are rapidly losing their home and the islands will likely be gone within the next 10-15 years if sea levels continue to rise.

Most of the Tuvalu islands are actually growing in size.

A University of Auckland study examined changes in the geography of Tuvalu's nine atolls and 101 reef islands between 1971 and 2014, using aerial photographs and satellite imagery.
It found eight of the atolls and almost three-quarters of the islands grew during the study period, lifting Tuvalu's total land area by 2.9 percent, even though sea levels in the country rose at twice the global average.

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-pacifi...on-bigger.html

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Most of the Tuvalu islands are actually growing in size.

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-pacifi...on-bigger.html

Interesting. I had also read in the past that in some of these island countries, rising sea levels are contaminating their fresh water aquifers, which was also a major cause of migration. Not sure how that fits in with this study but it's another consideration.

[Ozy_Flame]

Yeah, even in the article it says that groundwater supplies are already contaminated and the soil is too salty to grow anything meaningful. Rising sea levels are a consequence of climate change, but there are a host of other issues climate change creates.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Interesting. I had also read in the past that in some of these island countries, rising sea levels are contaminating their fresh water aquifers, which was also a major cause of migration. Not sure how that fits in with this study but it's another consideration.

Sure, but another factor would be increased demand from population growth drawing down the aquifers to a level where salt water more easily contaminates them. The small islands are growing slowing but that still means Tuvalu's population today is about 50% higher than it was 40 years ago. And the Maldives has seen both a massive population and development boom from its growing tourism industry.

[Mr.Coffee]

Just landed in Vancouver, very beautiful place!

Just looking around and my goodness these people use a breathtaking amount of energy! I wonder where all of it came from?

I know I know, for some reason we aren’t allowed to make this argument. My bad.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Just landed in Vancouver, very beautiful place!

Just looking around and my goodness these people use a breathtaking amount of energy! I wonder where all of it came from?

I know I know, for some reason we aren’t allowed to make this argument. My bad.

[Fuzz]

This is a great resource if you want to browse around sea level trends:


https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl.../sltrends.html


What I find interesting is if you look at stations with long term data going back 100 years (there aren't that many) you see a steady trend. There isn't a sharp rise. This makes me think that our emergence from the previous ice age is something that has been going on since before we tracked sea level rise, and there is no strong anthropogenic signal in the data. Some decrease as well.



Here are a few of the longer ones in the Pacific:
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl...tml?id=680-140
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl...tml?id=690-032
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl...tml?id=642-091
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl...tml?id=645-011
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl...tml?id=9419750
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sl...tml?id=822-071 -Vancouver

[Mr.Coffee]

Anyway on a more serious note I believe the best solutions (hopefully businesses and people in Calgary / Alberta can lead the way on this), is to reverse engineer and keep working on breaking CO2 into its base elements which can then be transformed into petroleum products in a carbon neutral cycle. Lots of research I’ve been reading in these areas lately and companies starting to make this stuff a reality.

That’s the key to making this work I believe. Companies like Carbon Engineering or C3 Biotech. Innovation. It’s time for Albertans to stop pissing and moaning about how the world hates oil and gas and Alberta and put on our work boots and become part of the solution. We need massive investment in R&D and I think the Canadian oil patch should lead the way.

[Mr.Coffee]

Dp

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Just landed in Vancouver, very beautiful place!

Just looking around and my goodness these people use a breathtaking amount of energy! I wonder where all of it came from?

95% of it from renewable sources.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

95% of it from renewable sources.

Uhhhh....

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Just landed in Vancouver, very beautiful place!

Just looking around and my goodness these people use a breathtaking amount of energy! I wonder where all of it came from?

I know I know, for some reason we aren’t allowed to make this argument. My bad.

This reads like a Trump tweet.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Uhhhh....

I think (hope) he's being facetious, but Vancouver does have the lowest GHG emissions per capita than any other major city in North America according to the city's website.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think (hope) he's being facetious, but Vancouver does have the lowest GHG emissions per capita than any other major city in North America according to the city's website.

Yes, it’s what they’ll tell you. Don’t look behind the curtain.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Most of the Tuvalu islands are actually growing in size.

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-pacifi...on-bigger.html

That's kind of a misleading article. The atolls are getting larger because of sediment deposit. This means more sand is being deposited adding to the total area of the atoll, , which affects the length and width of the land, but not affecting the important elevation. The important factor that rising sea levels will affect is the sustainable land mass. All this means is there will be more beaches under water as the waters rise. It does not mean the land mass is rising to keep the sustainable resources (arid land and fresh water sources) safe. It just means that more sediment is piling up against the atoll.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Anyway on a more serious note I believe the best solutions (hopefully businesses and people in Calgary / Alberta can lead the way on this), is to reverse engineer and keep working on breaking CO2 into its base elements which can then be transformed into petroleum products in a carbon neutral cycle. Lots of research I’ve been reading in these areas lately and companies starting to make this stuff a reality.

That’s the key to making this work I believe. Companies like Carbon Engineering or C3 Biotech. Innovation. It’s time for Albertans to stop pissing and moaning about how the world hates oil and gas and Alberta and put on our work boots and become part of the solution. We need massive investment in R&D and I think the Canadian oil patch should lead the way.

Completely agree! Alberta has a lot to work with. They have a ton of engineers and capital they could turn into an innovation mecca. Alberta should be leading the charge in finding better ways to use the hydrocarbon molecule, not just pulling it out of the ground and shipping it to market. Some really great ideas have come out of Alberta recently, so maybe the commitment has begun?