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Old 04-08-2018, 11:48 AM   #461
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Haha, well thatís a different debate, but whether you adhere to altruism or egoism, there are reasons on both sides for why one should care about others (because in this case, improvement of the First Nations situation then directly improves oneís own).
Well then it's not altruism.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:52 AM   #462
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The main thesis here: the problem is colonialism. Not isolation.
Can I ask you personally if you speak a Native language and if not what have you done personally to learn or ensure that your children will do so.

What is the drive from within to revive/restore your language culture and traditions?
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:58 AM   #463
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Can I ask you personally if you speak a Native language and if not what have you done personally to learn or ensure that your children will do so.

What is the drive from within to revive/restore your language culture and traditions?
I'm not First Nations. But I am friends and colleagues with this lady and have helped her with her Cree language high school class and helped out with her summer camp.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...-teaching.html
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:19 PM   #464
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I'm not First Nations. But I am friends and colleagues with this lady and have helped her with her Cree language high school class and helped out with her summer camp.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...-teaching.html
Thanks ...good to see. But it's very little in the big picture. A summer camp that teaches adults? Why is there no all round classes for all?

Why do you need certified teachers to teach the language?

What is taking place at the community level ..from within to revive the language. culture etc? If I was to walk onto a reserve today what percentage of the population would be fluent in their native tongue and if low, why so?
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Old 04-08-2018, 01:35 PM   #465
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Well then it's not altruism.
Right, itís egoism. Read the post again.

Point is, there are both selfless and selfish reasons to care. Seeing no reason at all is very weird.
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:54 PM   #466
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Thanks ...good to see. But it's very little in the big picture. A summer camp that teaches adults? Why is there no all round classes for all?

Why do you need certified teachers to teach the language?

What is taking place at the community level ..from within to revive the language. culture etc? If I was to walk onto a reserve today what percentage of the population would be fluent in their native tongue and if low, why so?
This post reeks of "oh.. that wasn't the answer I was expecting, so let me just reduce the significance of what you're doing and give you almost zero credit."
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:59 PM   #467
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This post reeks of "oh.. that wasn't the answer I was expecting, so let me just reduce the significance of what you're doing and give you almost zero credit."
Credit for what?

A summer school for adults from one individual teaching the language? That's a hell of a program.

Why don't you try answering it then or justifying why you feel that is more than enough to give it more credit instead of a smarmy drive by.

Where is the program from within to promote the language?
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:54 PM   #468
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As bad as it sounds most Canadians don’t care about First Nations. And there is nothing that will change that thought until the system is changed. Why should the average person care? I don’t see a reason yet why anyone should.

In before ice cube calls me a racist.
This is the most disheartening post I've ever read on CP, and there's been a lot. Really upsetting and yet unfortunately Weitz' thoughts are true of most people in this country towards our indigenous citizens.

So sad.

What a heartbreaking sentiment. No, I don't think there's any point in calling you racist, as that type of rhetoric doesn't go anywhere on the internet, but I sincerely hope you can look inside your heart one day and change how you feel.

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Old 04-08-2018, 05:10 PM   #469
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“The Canadian Psychologist Beating American Pundits at Their Own Game”



Politico with a decent read on this Peterson fellow so many seem enamoured with.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...wn-game-217773
Not bad, as far as polemics against Peterson go. Of course, the whole things rests on the premise that anyone appealing to young white men must be vaguely sinister. The Cathy Newman interview took the same tack: But your audience is made up mostly of young men, isn't it? as if that's something dark and troubling.

The author betrays his own political agenda here:

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To him, the hierarchical structures that underlie Western society are preordained, and questioning them is like questioning the weather, or the train schedule, or the Marvel Studios balance sheet. “You don’t change the world by going and waving signs at people you’ve defined as more evil than you,” he insists in a tirade against the efficacy of protest. If life has dealt you a bad hand, summon your inner Łbermensch and get thee to the laundromat.
The West today is one of the least hierarchical societies in history. And the principles Peterson defends are largely liberal ones - individual autonomy, freedom of speech, rule of law.

It never ceases to astonish me how ardent progressives are in their desire to overturn the institutions and values that have created the most liberal, tolerant, progressive (not to mention affluent) society the world has seen. Does it never occur to them to consider why women's liberation, abortion rights, gay rights, labour rights, etc. all happened first in the West?

As for Peterson's admonition to clean up your own life before you go trying to change the world, it's actually pretty conventional mental health advice. We all try to internalize everything that's good in our world and externalize everything that's bad. The good is because of me, the bad is because of them. But that's an unhealthy feature of human psychology that most people need to overcome to find maturity and happiness.
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:38 PM   #470
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Not bad, as far as polemics against Peterson go.
You read that and saw an agenda?

It seems more like a portrait to me, neither negative nor positive, simply an espousal of truths. It seemed incredibly fair and even keeled.

Itís very odd how some posters praise certain ideals (like taking a speaker at their words, not your own perceived intent in order to paint them into a corner) and betray them constantly.
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:42 PM   #471
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Probably the biggest hurdle in language revitalization is the loss of language due to residential school experiences over the generations. It's extremely difficult to support students who are in language classes or immersion programs if nobody in the home is able to speak the language anymore.

I've already spoken to the lower level of funding reserve schools receive. Language programs that aren't French immersion don't receive a ton of funding so they tend to operate on a thin budget.

There are programs at the grassroots level but the funding and capacity isn't there to do things that are going to have a large impact. It's a more daunting task than it sounds. From what I have been told, Elders, certified language teachers, methodologists, and linguistic specialists are working together to develop curriculum materials and effective teaching methods and doing it on their own time when the funding isn't available.

The summer camp that my friend teaches has been fairly successful and continues to grow.

I'm no expert but from what I've been told, cree uses a verb based system as opposed to noun; it is intended to be learned through experience. The western style of education in a classroom setting doesn't necessarily jive well with an indigenous worldview or ways of teaching . Traditional tribal education that existed prior to colonization included practical teachings that suited everyday needs (along with value teachings, stories, etc.) . Learning the language, was incorporated into daily life while doing everyday tasks.

That's a reason why my friend's summer camp has seen some success: research studies show language acquisition is best developed in natural communicative settings. They're out doing stuff on the land and learning in a natural communicative setting and retaining a lot of what they learn.

Anyway, Cree is apparently pretty complex and a lot different from learning English. It sounds like a difficult journey to become fluent for those who haven't been taught in the home since birth. I can't speak to the other languages because I don't know anybody who speaks Dene or Lakota or any of the other indigenous languages around here.
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:06 PM   #472
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Probably the biggest hurdle in language revitalization is the loss of language due to residential school experiences over the generations. It's extremely difficult to support students who are in language classes or immersion programs if nobody in the home is able to speak the language anymore.

I've already spoken to the lower level of funding reserve schools receive. Language programs that aren't French immersion don't receive a ton of funding so they tend to operate on a thin budget.

There are programs at the grassroots level but the funding and capacity isn't there to do things that are going to have a large impact. It's a more daunting task than it sounds. From what I have been told, Elders, certified language teachers, methodologists, and linguistic specialists are working together to develop curriculum materials and effective teaching methods and doing it on their own time when the funding isn't available.
I have a fair idea what it entails from my own experience of another language that was suppressed by the British but to say that the funding and capacity isn't there to do things that are going to have a large impact is, imo, defeatist and just shunning responsibility. You got to start somewhere
There is no immediate need for certified language teachers. Anyone that can speak the language can pass it on through weekly workshops etc.

What I'm enquiring about is just how much language is being taught on he reserves from self initiated programs.

Funding here to set up your own group.

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-he...languages.html
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:16 PM   #473
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Probably the biggest hurdle in language revitalization is the loss of language due to residential school experiences over the generations.
Gaelic is dying in Ireland, but it's not because of an evil agenda to stamp it out. It's because kids don't have Gaelic TV to watch or any reason to speak it. Spanish-speaking immigrants to the U.S. stop speaking their mother tongue by the third generation.

You're obsessed with residential schools. The fate of Canada's Natives would have been little different without residential schools. You only have to look at the lives of Natives in the U.S., Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia, and all the other countries with Native populations and no history of residential schools to see that.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:10 PM   #474
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I sat and watched residential school survivors speak at the truth and reconciliation commission when it came to Saskatoon. I watched grown men cry recalling tales of sexual abuse, physical abuse and every other evil act imaginable.

One man told how he got beat up so bad for speaking his own language that he #### himself and then the priest made him stuff his feces back inside his own anus. He was 6 years old. That's only one of the worst stories I heard that day. I get almost physically sick just thinking about what some of the women shared.

I truly think you're a scumbag to minimize the residential school experience and I have zero respect for you.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:29 PM   #475
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Gaelic is dying in Ireland, but it's not because of an evil agenda to stamp it out. It's because kids don't have Gaelic TV to watch or any reason to speak it. Spanish-speaking immigrants to the U.S. stop speaking their mother tongue by the third generation.


I wouldn't say it is dying ... far from it. In fact it is very much the opposite. It might be declining as a working language but there are more people that can speak the language today (big difference). My youngest brother was the only one in our house that could speak fluently. Now, all my nieces and nephews are fluent Irish speakers. And this is in the North where we still haven't got an Irish Language Act.
And yes, in the North there is an evil agenda to suppress. There still is no Irish Language act.
http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-langu...51417-Feb2018/

And as for TV? Today was the National Hurling League Final between Kilkenny and Tipperary. The game was on TG4, an Irish channel with full commentary in Irish.

If you want to see the game go to GAAGO. Free trial period. https://www.gaago.ie/

This is sorta actually my point. Whilst, yes the Language as a working language might be in decline the number of speakers is flourishing. There is a great pride amongst the youth today in being able to speak their native tongue. It's very much a grassroots movement hence my questioning what was being done on the reservations to promote their languages and is their a desire/pride amongst the youth to learn. i.e. Native Pride?
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:53 AM   #476
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not sure where else to put this

Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein (it's long, over 2 hours)

Basically a conversation between a scientist and a social scientist about race and IQ and I think it presents a good debate. I fall slightly on the Klein side where data one it's own is one thing but there was definitely policy that led to these statistics.

These two genuinely don't like each other

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Old 04-10-2018, 10:04 AM   #477
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^^^

I listened to that last night. There were some good points made by both. As is so often the case with these issues, it comes down to whether it's more important how people react to a fact vs whether it's true. Like Harris, I believe discerning if something is true and what to do about that knowledge are two entirely different things.

But man, does Sam Harris have a persecution complex. I'd listen to his podcast more if the 2 hour run time didn't always include 40 minutes of Harris explaining the various social media feuds he's involved in and how he's so unfairly maligned by this blogger or that columnist. More often than not I agree with his take on things, but there's something really off-putting about a free speech advocate who obsesses over his critics. Dude needs to grow a thicker skin.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:11 AM   #478
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I'm not sure what it has to do with Jordan Peterson, but that debate is fairly pointless. Harris's game is pop philosophy, while Klein's game is politics. The two games have very different rules. Philosophy is aimed at a sober analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of ideas, while politics is about winning - ensuring that the ideology you think will do the most good (however you define good) wins prevalence in society and does its work. Those two games have entirely different sets of rules for discourse as a necessary result of having different aims. In politics, virtue signalling and tasting opponents to the greatest degree you can manage to get away with is all to the good. In philosophy, it's irrelevant and obnoxious behaviour.

People like Harris who want to play the philosophy game are understandably pissed off when someone tries to come after them playing politics. However, this is where the "pop" side of his philosophical bent comes in: he's applying philosophical methods of discussion to current events that are clearly primarily going to be treated politically. He's essentially coming into Klein's home turf and throwing his weight around, then acting surprised and hurt when Klein treats him like anyone else in the politics sphere. The right response, if you want to do philosophy about current events but not get caught up in this, is to simply state outright that X person is dishonestly smearing me for political reasons, and we have different interests that don't overlap even though we happen to be discussing some similar topics. Then leave him to do his thing for his own audience. And if it rises to defamation, fine; sue him. But stop taking these people so seriously.

I mean the guy literally came on and said he'd tallied up the number of black and white guests on Harris's show and found those numbers to be a problem. What more do you need to hear from him before you stop wasting your time?
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:26 AM   #479
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Here's a take on Twelve Rules For Life from Scott Alexander. He's a clinical psychiatrist, and his website, Slater Star Codex, is a hub of what its participants call the rationalist movement, or the 'greys' (as opposed to the blues and reds in American politics). It's a good forum for in-depth discussion of issue of psychology, biology, philosophy, etc. and their intersection with politics. Alexander and the other writers can sometimes crawl pretty deep up their own bums, but the discussions rarely turn partisan or devolve into name-calling. Which is pretty amazing, considering the subject matter.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/26...ules-for-life/

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Maybe it’s just that everyone else is such crap at it. Maybe it’s just that the alternatives are mostly either god-hates-fags fundamentalists or more-inclusive-than-thou milquetoasts. Maybe if anyone else was any good at this, it would be easy to recognize Jordan Peterson as what he is – a mildly competent purveyor of pseudo-religious platitudes. But I actually acted as a slightly better person during the week or so I read Jordan Peterson’s book. I feel properly ashamed about this. If you ask me whether I was using dragon-related metaphors, I will vociferously deny it. But I tried a little harder at work. I was a little bit nicer to people I interacted with at home. It was very subtle. It certainly wasn’t because of anything new or non-cliched in his writing. But God help me, for some reason the cliches worked...

...You can almost believe that there really is this Science-Of-How-To-Live-Well, separate from all the other sciences, barely-communicable by normal means but expressible through art and prophecy. And that this connects with the question on everyone’s lips, the one about how we find a meaning for ourselves beyond just consumerism and casual sex...
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Old 04-10-2018, 11:32 AM   #480
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I sat and watched residential school survivors speak at the truth and reconciliation commission when it came to Saskatoon. I watched grown men cry recalling tales of sexual abuse, physical abuse and every other evil act imaginable.

One man told how he got beat up so bad for speaking his own language that he #### himself and then the priest made him stuff his feces back inside his own anus. He was 6 years old. That's only one of the worst stories I heard that day. I get almost physically sick just thinking about what some of the women shared.

I truly think you're a scumbag to minimize the residential school experience and I have zero respect for you.
Okay, lets not minimize it.

What now?
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