Canmore population to double? Legal battle?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not that hard a concept to get. Nature has a carrying capacity. When Canmore was small, large animals would pass through it, or go around. There wasn't much traffic or people to get in the way. As more developments occurred, animals had to go further around, and as density increased had more interactions if they had to go through. They don't go through anymore(not like they did when i was a kid, anyway).

Then places like Silvertip and Peaks of Grassi went it, removing the upper margins of the valley for animal transit on both sides. Now a massive N/S corridor is going to have shops and condos in the way. I know, you don't care. But you asked.

It's weird having to explain that a small town has less negative impact and interactions than a large one. It's kind of obvious.

And yes, we were critical of developments back then that were unnatural. There was a big thing around the river dyke, but it was ultimately deemed necessary. I remember a friend pulling marker stakes along the river path, because the old natural path was seen as better. There were many decisions made even back then that were debated.

Well hey, I'm all for building another mountain town. Since that, too, is a non-starter for people in the valley (remember...it's fine if they live there, but bear in mind they called 'no more joiners' so screw anybody else). As for the problems growth creates? Yep, no different than the problems growth creates anywhere else on planet earth. We're humans. We're smart. The problems we create in Canmore we will also fix. If we don't fix them, things will suck and people will leave and it'll shrink. But it's not going back to 1993 and Canmore people need to get that through their heads and start being a little fkn nicer.

[you&me]

I think it's hilarious that anyone can have an opinion for when it was OK and not OK for new residents / growth / development to happen, based on some arbitrary date that just happens to coincide with some point after they were the new resident. Like, growth was totally fine when I was the growth, but not fine at some point afterwards.

Observing someone failing to see the FYGM in this is wild (excuse the pun).

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Just tell them you're a weekender. They expect that from us.

No way! I tell people I'm a native Canmoron and its my God-Given Right!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by you&me

I think it's hilarious that anyone can have an opinion for when it was OK and not OK for new residents / growth / development to happen, based on some arbitrary date that just happens to coincide with some point after they were the new resident. Like, growth was totally fine when I was the growth, but not fine at some point afterwards.

Observing someone failing to see the FYGM in this is wild (excuse the pun).

That's not the real issue though, never has been. It's the vacation places that most take issue with. The locals aren't on a FYGM mission, because most do welcome residents. And the long term residents are also the ones who believed in the town and stayed when the mine closed and it looked pretty bleak for a few years.



it's weird people don't get why members of the community are upset to see the reasons they moved to Canmore in the first place get destroyed, and not because the residents voted for it. They have little choice.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The problem is that income inequality (as well as asset inequality when you consider help from parents or inheritance) is such that the people who can afford to buy houses and secondary properties are further from the people who can't than in the past. In other words, in the 1970s, the average income in the 6th to 8th deciles (middle-to-upper-middle class) was about 40% higher than the average in the 3rd to 5th deciles (working and middle class). Currently it's over 90% higher.

So even if price to income ratios were totally normal, the income disparity is simply too much for the bottom 30-40% to really overcome. When a working class family in the 1970s could afford to buy a modest house, it wasn't really because housing was ridiculously cheap. It was because the large middle class group they were competing with weren't earning 2x the income they were.

This is the growing gap we don’t like to acknowledge. Two-income professional households have formed a new economic class that is pulling away. We recognize on some level that it’s happening. It’s why upper middle class parents invest so much energy and money into their kids’ upbringing, to ensure they wind up on the right side of the widening fissure. We just don’t like to talk about it openly (mainly because the upper middle class dominate public discourse and prefer to cast billionaires as the real sources of inequality).

Assortative mating and the decline of marriage among the working class makes the disparity worse - not only are the income and wealth gaps between educated professionals and less educated workers widening, but high-earning professionals today typically partner with other high-earning professionals in enduring marriages (doubling up on their income advantage), while the working class are more likely to be single or in unstable relationships.

This divergence is bad for social cohesion. But the emerging realization that this is becoming intergenerational is going to be even more destabilizing.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not the real issue though, never has been. It's the vacation places that most take issue with. The locals aren't on a FYGM mission, because most do welcome residents. And the long term residents are also the ones who believed in the town and stayed when the mine closed and it looked pretty bleak for a few years.



it's weird people don't get why members of the community are upset to see the reasons they moved to Canmore in the first place get destroyed, and not because the residents voted for it. They have little choice.

To your point though, it was bleak for years after the mine closed and only when it became a tourist destination did the economy pick up. Its weird, this sounds similar to Bowen island. "Welcome to Bowen Island — don't forget to leave"

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not the real issue though, never has been. It's the vacation places that most take issue with. The locals aren't on a FYGM mission, because most do welcome residents. And the long term residents are also the ones who believed in the town and stayed when the mine closed and it looked pretty bleak for a few years.

it's weird people don't get why members of the community are upset to see the reasons they moved to Canmore in the first place get destroyed, and not because the residents voted for it. They have little choice.

Dude, we get it just fine. Everyone can relate. We're humans. We've experienced nostalgia.

As adults, though, we don't act like spoiled brats like Canmore residents do.

Like, you wish it was like it once was. We get it, Canmore people. Get the fk over it and quit acting like you're better than people who just want to chill in the place they bought on the weekend. You're being ridiculous.

And don't you go visit there on the weekends and stay at your dad's sometimes? I obviously don't know if you do or not, but I'm sure there are people that visit family for the weekend. Are they all #######s as well? Like sorry I don't have a dad with a place in Canmore, which would apparently be my ticket in to not get treated like a piece of #### when I'm there.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Leondros

To your point though, it was bleak for years after the mine closed and only when it became a tourist destination did the economy pick up. Its weird, this sounds similar to Bowen island. "Welcome to Bowen Island — don't forget to leave"

So true. It would be a fkn ghost town without the influx of people who came along and improved it in every way conceivable. There is no economy in Canmore if you take out vacationers. Nothing. They should be appreciative of people who come with their suitcases full of money to throw at them.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Leondros

To your point though, it was bleak for years after the mine closed and only when it became a tourist destination did the economy pick up. Its weird, this sounds similar to Bowen island. "Welcome to Bowen Island — don't forget to leave"

Not really. It didn't become much of a typical tourist destination until the late 90's. There weren't very many hotels, and even fewer condos. Canmore survived by Banff tourism and diversifying into a outdoor sporting, like climbing, cross country ski races, bike races, those sorts of things. Single events that brought people in. Everyone loved it. That was good tourism.

[Fuzz]

OK, now Sliver, now you are just lashing out angrily.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Not really. It didn't become much of a typical tourist destination until the late 90's. There weren't very many hotels, and even fewer condos. Canmore survived by Banff tourism and diversifying into a outdoor sporting, like climbing, cross country ski races, bike races, those sorts of things. Single events that brought people in. Everyone loved it. That was good tourism.

This is all tourist related activities - you know this right? Canmore needed to attract people. Thats like saying people flocked to Mexico for the beaches, sun shine and cheap booze, but it wasn't tourism related... Without tourism/people spending money, Canmore would have failed - there was no economy

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It sucked from a vacation/tourist perspective. It was just another Olds with a nicer backdrop. I'm sure it was wonderful if you lived there, but it wasn't a destination for people with Banff 15 minutes down the road and totally set up for non-stop fun. It would make no sense to go to Canmore (as a tourist or vacationer) back then.

Here's something else. I don't know when you moved to Calgary, but I think you'll struggle to find any Calgarian who wouldn't trade the Calgary of today for the Calgary of 1993. It was way less busy. I knew where everything was. There wasn't a neighbourhood I hadn't heard of. I knew all the schools. We'd skateboard, LRT and just generally treat the entire city as a big playground. Skate down 17th. Skate in Kensington. It was rad, but now it's a metropolis.

Why is it that Calgarians can totally accept that things have changed and not whine about it as though you and all the other people who added to our population explosion are somehow to blame for the growth? We really do accept people here without bitching about it. Traffic sucks everywhere. The city is huge. Infrastructure projects to accommodate all the new people are disruptive, time-consuming and expensive. That's okay. Such is life. We accept it and welcome people without trying to make them feel like lesser-thans.



Nope, fk the residents. We were totally taken aback at the outright hostility from Canmore residents. And you didn't build the valley for me. Canadians and Albertans built the valley. I'm a Canadian and I'm an Albertan. You can parse yourself down further to a Canmorian if you want, but I don't have to accept it. BTW, even if you did build the valley for me, you have a funny way of letting me use what was apparently built for me.

And yeah, the ski hills? Sorry, you can thank Calgarians for that. There's no economy or money inside Canmore or Banff outside of what's injected from tourists, many of which are from Calgary. Plus, I did work in Banff and Lake Louise, so I consider myself a contributor to the area.

And understand their perspective? I do. They're all fkn #######s. We started off so supportive of the community, but at about the two-year mark we had an epiphany that was confirmed by all the other people with vacation homes I've spoken with: residents of Canmore loath us and are very open about outwardly displaying that hatred.

So yeah, Canmore is great. The people are the absolute worst. Can't wait until the new people coming into Canmore outnumber the old-stock residents so we can drown out their negativity.

I just don't have the interest in catering to the nostalgia and feelings a bunch of people have for a town that hasn't existed in 25 years when they could just enjoy their new and improved town. I'm working on my own life over here. Don't put your crap on me.

***

To other CPers: If you want to experience somebody trying to treat you like you're a piece of gum stuck to the bottom of their shoe, next time you're in Canmore for the day and your server, the lady helping you check out an item at the store, or the person you run into on the street asks you where you're from (they all do this, btw...it's a way of slotting you into their pecking order), tell them you live in Calgary but have a weekend condo in Canmore. You will get THE frostiest, coldest, angriest response. You'll see their entire demeanor #### in 0.0001 seconds. It's wild.

Now if my wife and I aren't in the mood to deal with Canmore local BS we just say we're from Calgary for the day. That makes things easier, but sometimes I'll tell the truth just to see them transform to show their inner a-hole.

Another fun thing we do is say we live in Canmore. You can really get some dirt on what they think of people with a vacation property here. You see Fuzz talking about "weekenders" and "empty houses" and the ruining of "the community" so openly here, right? And he's a nice guy! Well, you should hear those words when there is a hateful tone and ugly look on somebody's face. It's seriously messed up. Closest thing a Canadian white guy will ever get to experiencing a smidgen of what racism must feel like to a minority. They seriously fkn hate us there.

Maybe you’re just an #######? I’ve never had that experience anywhere and have told many places/people were “weekenders”.

[dammage79]

I think Fuzz means there used to be a balance. Livable space for workers and 2nd home condos. I don't blame land owners for the imbalance or the 2nd home vacation property owners, in fact I don't know who could be to blame but the fact is the ppl who developed the bow valley got greedy and completely missed the mark on keeping some space affordable for the ppl who live off off tourist dollars.

I lived there from 95 to 2013, things were fine. Plenty of tourists, the rich folk had their eagle terraces and Silvertip, things like Canadian tire came in. Don't know who thought having Sobeys AND Safeway only a couple hundred feet apart but that was the beginning of the weird imbalance tilting one way.

I think my point is there's room for both 2nd homes space and for average ppl having fair rent and space in the valley. Problem is greed is blinding.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Knut

I loved the Locke and Sliver exchange about MacGregor Lake. There and Little Bow are havens of the all weekend partier.

If you drew a box from Stavely to Little Bow, up to MacGregor lake then across to encompass High River you will find a group of drinkers with superior genetic alcohol tolerance. They work hard and party hard and can do it for days on end. Lots of successful people have come out of that box and lots have died from Substance abuse and drunk driving.

As for Canmore, my wife and I kicked tires on buying a place out there for years, but instead decided to buy a lake Access house in Calgary. I hated the idea of having to look after two properties. We kind of are kicking ourselves we didn't though as every time we head out there we remember how great the place is.

Interesting. That was our literal exact scenario as well, but we obviously landed on the two properties. You did it super neat, though. Basically rolled your recreation property and primary residence into one. Pros and cons for both. Maybe we'll do a life swap one year and see what could have been hah.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Maybe you’re just an #######? I’ve never had that experience anywhere and have told many places/people were “weekenders”.

Mmmmhmmm. Well, let's see if others do my little experiment.

The casual interactions are my favourite, though. I was putting some garbage in the dumpster and picking up some other crap that was laying around beside it. Some lady walked by and said, "was probably somebody from Calgary who left that!"

You haven't noticed any animosity toward weekenders? Either I'm an ####### or you're totally oblivious. And I know I'm not an #######. I mean, have you read what Fuzz has been saying? They'll outright tell you to your face you're a problem haha.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

OK, now Sliver, now you are just lashing out angrily.

Have I gone overboard? Yes.

I hope we're still friends. We click on everything except Canmore stuff. At least we can leave our Canmore disagreements in this thread, though.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Leondros

This is all tourist related activities - you know this right? Canmore needed to attract people. Thats like saying people flocked to Mexico for the beaches, sun shine and cheap booze, but it wasn't tourism related... Without tourism/people spending money, Canmore would have failed - there was no economy

My point was Canmore tourism didn't turn into what it is now until much later. And it was doing just fine in the 90's off of that type of tourism AND supporting Banff(which was the major part of it).

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Have I gone overboard? Yes.

I hope we're still friends. We click on everything except Canmore stuff. At least we can leave our Canmore disagreements in this thread, though.

It's OK Sliver, everyone is wrong about something. For me it's ...hrmmm...well I can't come up with anything right now, I better go ask my wife.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not the real issue though, never has been. It's the vacation places that most take issue with. The locals aren't on a FYGM mission, because most do welcome residents. And the long term residents are also the ones who believed in the town and stayed when the mine closed and it looked pretty bleak for a few years.



it's weird people don't get why members of the community are upset to see the reasons they moved to Canmore in the first place get destroyed, and not because the residents voted for it. They have little choice.

Ok, then in theory, doubling the size of Canmore will open up opportunities for both vacationers and permanent residents, should it not? Ultimately, it's trying to solve a supply constraint issue on both sides. Shouldn't you be for this project then?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

This is the growing gap we don’t like to acknowledge. Two-income professional households have formed a new economic class that is pulling away. We recognize on some level that it’s happening. It’s why upper middle class parents invest so much energy and money into their kids’ upbringing, to ensure they wind up on the right side of the widening fissure. We just don’t like to talk about it openly (mainly because the upper middle class dominate public discourse and prefer to cast billionaires as the real sources of inequality).

Assortative mating and the decline of marriage among the working class makes the disparity worse - not only are the income and wealth gaps between educated professionals and less educated workers widening, but high-earning professionals today typically partner with other high-earning professionals in enduring marriages (doubling up on their income advantage), while the working class are more likely to be single or in unstable relationships.

This divergence is bad for social cohesion. But the emerging realization that this is becoming intergenerational is going to be even more destabilizing.

I dunno man. Many of the richest people I know are people who didn't bother with university, went straight into working, and bought real estate early. People aren't working for their wealth anymore. When housing is the hot commodity and there's a shortage, it's all about owning as much as you can. Spending 6-10 years on a professional degree is time and opportunities costs wasted that could be put into flipping houses and "earning" hundreds of thousands.

If I could do it all gain, from a purely economic standpoint, I would have become a carpenter or machine operator. Bought a few places. Reaped the rewards of all my "hard work" (those sarcastic quotation marks are about the investing in real estate aspect, no the trades work, which is probably actually hard). Or better yet...become a real estate agent.

I do agree there's a class divide, but it's more between those whose parents already own great properties and those whose didn't. Even a professional degree, which costs an F-load to get in the first place, can't overcome the advantage to owning a single detached property in a desirable city.