[PGT] Hawks 5 Flames 1

[Locke]

Even look at Chicago's Goalscorers.

We got smoked by Chicago's AHL team.

[GioforPM]

I don't think anyone has argued that the team plays better in front of Vladar. The W-L speaks for itself.

The question is why that's on Markstrom and not the team. Especially in a game like last night when he gave them no reason through the start to have any lack of confidence in him. He was definitely on his game in the first ten-15 minutes, and they were not.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Lots of different types of teams contend for the cup. You look at the last ten or so years of cup winners, and Lindholm compares well to (and even tops) a few of the #1 centres in the list.

But I find the “this player isn’t this position on a cup contender!” argument is usually lazy and sometimes pretty dumb anyway.

Lindholm can be #1C on a cup winning team if the top line wingers, defense, and goalie are god tier. I'm squinting real hard to see that composition on this roster though.

[beaster]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Two division winning finishes in the last 4 years and a current 23-17-9 record in a WC spot?

you're right, it doesn't get worse than that

it's not how a season starts its about how it finishes

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

That's not the implication of the post.

I'm asking why the denial around the team about what's obvious to the rest of us.

Well that is my point...where is the denial? Vladar is getting the bulk of the work of late

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The question is why that's on Markstrom and not the team. Especially in a game like last night when he gave them no reason through the start to have any lack of confidence in him. He was definitely on his game in the first ten-15 minutes, and they were not.

Yeah, I can understand if you don't have confidence in your goalie feeling nervous to start the game. But once you see he's actually on his game it should settle you in. A team that can't is mentally weak.

Not that I buy the whole "The players have no confidence in him and that's why they don't score" excuse.

[dino7c]

Vladar has been average...team is playing at a 109 point pace with him in net on the season
Flames just need average not even great to be a good team that would coast into the playoffs

Sadly Markstrom has been below average

[Tsawwassen]

Postgame links
https://stats.cbc.ca/hockey/nhl/recap/146514
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...n-26-1.6727740
https://scores.nbcsports.com/nhl/rec...s=4&final=true
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/games/2466417/
https://www.espn.com/nhl/recap/_/gameId/401459361

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Lots of different types of teams contend for the cup. You look at the last ten or so years of cup winners, and Lindholm compares well to (and even tops) a few of the #1 centres in the list.

But I find the “this player isn’t this position on a cup contender!” argument is usually lazy and sometimes pretty dumb anyway.

McKinnon, Point, Crosby, Backstrom, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Datsyuk and Getzlaf, all #1 centres on cup winning teams dating back 15 years.

Please tell me who he compares too and "even tops" on this list in terms of skillset? I'd literally rather have every single one of those players over Lindholm as my #1 centre. All of those players have the capability to step on the ice and control the pace of the game and the skillset to gain the o zone with relative ease.

Like I said Lindholm is an awesome player, he's very useful and produces statistically, but he lacks the ability to carry and control the puck, which is a vital skill to have for your #1 centre in the playoffs. You are seeing it this year without Johnny, he looks less dangerous playing with 2 guys who can't do it either and this is our #1 line. His ideal spot is 2nd line C on a championship caliber team, behind a player that's the caliber of anybody I mentioned above.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by beaster

it's not how a season starts its about how it finishes

Not sure I agree.

I think if the GM builds a team that can win a division it's more on coaching to never take it the rest of the way isn't it?

Doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by CGY12

McKinnon, Point, Crosby, Backstrom, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Datsyuk and Getzlaf, all #1 centres on cup winning teams dating back 15 years.

Please tell me who he compares too and "even tops" on this list in terms of skillset? I'd literally rather have every single one of those players over Lindholm as my #1 centre. All of those players have the capability to step on the ice and control the pace of the game and the skillset to gain the o zone with relative ease.

Like I said Lindholm is an awesome player, he's very useful and produces statistically, but he lacks the ability to carry and control the puck, which is a vital skill to have for your #1 centre in the playoffs. You are seeing it this year without Johnny, he looks less dangerous playing with 2 guys who can't do it either and this is our #1 line. His ideal spot is 2nd line C on a championship caliber team, behind a player that's the caliber of anybody I mentioned above.

After a 3 point night against the top team in the division and still complaining.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CGY12

McKinnon, Point, Crosby, Backstrom, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Datsyuk and Getzlaf, all #1 centres on cup winning teams dating back 15 years.

Please tell me who he compares too and "even tops" on this list in terms of skillset? I'd literally rather have every single one of those players over Lindholm as my #1 centre. All of those players have the capability to step on the ice and control the pace of the game and the skillset to gain the o zone with relative ease.

Like I said Lindholm is an awesome player, he's very useful and produces statistically, but he lacks the ability to carry and control the puck, which is a vital skill to have for your #1 centre in the playoffs. You are seeing it this year without Johnny, he looks less dangerous playing with 2 guys who can't do it either and this is our #1 line. His ideal spot is 2nd line C on a championship caliber team, behind a player that's the caliber of anybody I mentioned above.

He’s one of the best defensive forwards in the league, playing better on that side of the puck than bottom six guys who specialize in it (spends more time short handed than most of the league and still produces), and he’s a number one because he can bring the offence as well. He’s excellent on faceoffs and I think you’re wrong by about his ability to carry and control the puck. Of course he looks less dangerous offensively without two 100+ point players on his wing. Literally every guy you named looks less dangerous with weaker wingers, and few of them are exceptional enough to look completely dangerous on their own.

He’s comparable to Bergeron, Backstrom, O’Rielly, Toews, Kopitar, Getzlaf, Krejci, etc. I think when you balance out offence and defence, he’s better than Backstrom, O’Rielly, Toews, Kopitar, and Krejci. You can disagree, and that’s fine, but saying he can’t be a number one on a stanley cup winning team is lazy and dumb.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

After a 3 point night against the top team in the division and still complaining.

Complaining? lol. Talk about tunnel vision. In my post I stated Lindholm is an awesome player. Just because I don't think he's a #1 centre on a true Stanley Cup contending team I don't like the player?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He’s one of the best defensive forwards in the league, playing better on that side of the puck than bottom six guys who specialize in it (spends more time short handed than most of the league and still produces), and he’s a number one because he can bring the offence as well. He’s excellent on faceoffs and I think you’re wrong by about his ability to carry and control the puck. Of course he looks less dangerous offensively without two 100+ point players on his wing. Literally every guy you named looks less dangerous with weaker wingers, and few of them are exceptional enough to look completely dangerous on their own.

He’s comparable to Bergeron, Backstrom, O’Rielly, Toews, Kopitar, Getzlaf, Krejci, etc. I think when you balance out offence and defence, he’s better than Backstrom, O’Rielly, Toews, Kopitar, and Krejci. You can disagree, and that’s fine, but saying he can’t be a number one on a stanley cup winning team is lazy and dumb.

I don't disagree with his ability to produce, play in his own zone or win faceoffs. He's a very good player. In my opinion a #1 centre, on a contender, the #1 centre needs excel at carrying the puck and gaining the zone, which I don't think is a strength of his. If you want to call me lazy for having that opinion based on watching the Flames, that's fine.

Also not disputing the fact that he isn't going to be as dangerous without Gaudreau or Tkachuk, that's a given, simply stating that the 1st line is missing a calibre of player that excels at zone entries. Hell even the power play struggles because of this.

I'll give you O'Reilly, Krejci wasn't mentioned because he isn't a 1st line centre, the others are all hall of famers yet you think they are comparable to Lindholm? Lindholm is a good player but he ain't at that level.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CGY12

I'll give you O'Reilly, Krejci wasn't mentioned because he isn't a 1st line centre, the others are all hall of famers yet you think they are comparable to Lindholm? Lindholm is a good player but he ain't at that level.

Krejci was the Bruins #1 center in 2011. And of course, these are all winners, we haven’t even mentioned “contenders” which is a lot looser. Calling Toews, Kopitar, and Backstrom hall of famers as the reason Lindholm isn’t on their level doesn’t mean anything, as if Lindholm continues his trajectory you’ll probably be talking about him as a hall of famer in seven years when he’s the same age as those guys.

Toews and Backstrom are two examples of guys who have benefitted heavily by playing with generational wingers through most of their careers. Kopitar plays a pretty comparable game to Lindholm.

Regardless, if the argument is that Lindholm can’t be #1 on a cup contender and you admit he’s better than O’Rielly and Krejci, that pretty much disproves the original point right there.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Krejci was the Bruins #1 center in 2011. And of course, these are all winners, we haven’t even mentioned “contenders” which is a lot looser. Calling Toews, Kopitar, and Backstrom hall of famers as the reason Lindholm isn’t on their level doesn’t mean anything, as if Lindholm continues his trajectory you’ll probably be talking about him as a hall of famer in seven years when he’s the same age as those guys.

Toews and Backstrom are two examples of guys who have benefitted heavily by playing with generational wingers through most of their careers. Kopitar plays a pretty comparable game to Lindholm.

Regardless, if the argument is that Lindholm can’t be #1 on a cup contender and you admit he’s better than O’Rielly and Krejci, that pretty much disproves the original point right there.

I didn't admit anything. Playoff hockey is vastly different than regular season hockey. All 5 players you mentioned are within grasp of each other in terms of ppg production in playoff hockey, Lindholm is a ways behind all 5, and you call me lazy lol.

PS. Lindholm will never be a hall of famer

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CGY12

I didn't admit anything. Playoff hockey is vastly different than regular season hockey. All 5 players you mentioned are within grasp of each other in terms of ppg production in playoff hockey, Lindholm is a ways behind all 5, and you call me lazy lol.

PS. Lindholm will never be a hall of famer

Keep finding whatever stat line you need. First you say he’s awesome and produces statistically, but it’s his carry and control ability that’s the problem. Now it’s that he doesn’t produce enough. Doesn’t matter because, as I said, his defensive ability is exceptional. He’s improved his P/GP in the playoffs every year, and has produced better than some individual years of guys like Bergeron, Toews, Backstrom, etc. You want to use career averages? Then give him another 7 years. You’re still being lazy, so who cares what you think about hall of fame predictions? You can’t barely figure out today.

As for what you admitted:

Originally Posted by CGY12

I'll give you O'Reilly

That’s Stanley Cup winner Ryan O’Reilly, and if Lindholm is comparable or better than he is (which you “gave me”) then guess he’s good enough to win a cup as a #1.

Don’t know why you’re fighting it so hard. It’s a weak point to make in the first place, you don’t lose anything by admitting it was dumb.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Keep finding whatever stat line you need. First you say he’s awesome and produces statistically, but it’s his carry and control ability that’s the problem. Now it’s that he doesn’t produce enough. Doesn’t matter because, as I said, his defensive ability is exceptional. He’s improved his P/GP in the playoffs every year, and has produced better than some individual years of guys like Bergeron, Toews, Backstrom, etc. You want to use career averages? Then give him another 7 years. You’re still being lazy, so who cares what you think about hall of fame predictions? You can’t barely figure out today.

As for what you admitted:



That’s Stanley Cup winner Ryan O’Reilly, and if Lindholm is comparable or better than he is (which you “gave me”) then guess he’s good enough to win a cup as a #1.

Don’t know why you’re fighting it so hard. It’s a weak point to make in the first place, you don’t lose anything by admitting it was dumb.

I gave you O'Rielly as a comparable, then checked his production in the playoffs, no bueno. Everybody else it wasn't necessary to look up the data even though I did.

Like I said, Lindholm is a good player, he does somethings very well and in my opinion a great 2nd line centre on a championship contender. To rely on him as your go to, I don't think so. In a game where puck possession/zone entries are key, its kinda important that your #1 be able to excel at that, I don't think he does.

Somebody calling somebody else lazy can't even double check playoff averages lol. The worst statistically of that group is Krejci and even he is 20% more productive statistically in the playoffs.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CGY12

I gave you O'Rielly as a comparable, then checked his production in the playoffs, no bueno. Everybody else it wasn't necessary to look up the data even though I did.

Like I said, Lindholm is a good player, he does somethings very well and in my opinion a great 2nd line centre on a championship contender. To rely on him as your go to, I don't think so. In a game where puck possession/zone entries are key, its kinda important that your #1 be able to excel at that, I don't think he does.

Somebody calling somebody else lazy can't even double check playoff averages lol. The worst statistically of that group is Krejci and even he is 20% more productive statistically in the playoffs.

If your entire argument is based off playoff p/gp averages, it’s not a very good argument.

Kadri is higher than Backstrom, Kopitar, Datsyuk, and Krejci, so I guess we have a Stanley Cup calibre #1 center regardless of how you feel about Lindholm.

As far as double checking playoff averages, Datsyuk is actually the lowest (should have triple checked I guess), and he’s 0.09 ahead of Lindholm. For easy math, that means for every 100 playoff games they play, Datsyuk would have put up 9 more points than Lindholm. In a playoff run where every series goes to game 7? 3 points. So you’re not making much of an argument even as you “double check” the stats. And that’s even with you waffling between trying to figure out if your argument is production or your visual perception of how he controls the puck (despite being one of the best defensive forwards in the league, which dismisses your argument about control entirely).

[Finger Cookin]

Man, the Flames sure do have this chronic inability to find true players for their roles. Monahan was never a true number one center, Lindholm's not a true number one center, Markstrom's not a true number one goalie, Backlund was never a true number two center, I can't remember if Gaudreau was ever a true first line winger, but I'm guessing probably not, Iginla never had a true number one center, we haven't had a true number one right winger since Iginla, or a true number one goalie since Kiprusoff.

We should get a true number one GM who can hire true number one scouts to find true players who truly fit their true roles, and then a true number one coach. I can't believe we just haven't done this already.

[Flamesfan05]

The years St Louis and Boston won the cups, Tim Thomas and Binnington stood on their heads

If they get goaltending like that and a very good balanced teams, Lindholm can probably win the cup

Just don’t expect him to be the main guy. He has never been one. If he is, you’d struggle making the playoffs like they are now