Discussion: Do the Flames have a problem promoting young players?

[dino7c]

For all the talk about the ones that got away the Flames got Zadorov and Vladar (24 and 26 when acquired) for next to nothing and have developed them when other teams let them go way too early

Certainly better than guys like Valimaki

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vedder

Valimaki’s big shot was last training camp. He’s in the lineup on opening night and then simply got outplayed by his competition. He had a bad camp this year and the rest is history (although I probably would have kept him over Mackey simply due to age and upside).

The irony in using Valimaki as an example of the topic at hand is that his roster spot was taken by Oliver Kylington, a promoted young player with similar NHL experience at the start of last season. He had a lot qualities that wouldn’t make him the most prototypical Sutter player either, but he had a great season with increasing responsibility.

Ultimately he might turn into something, but outside of an Arizona team with zero expectations I don’t think he will find a lot of coaches in the league that use long leashes and positive reinforcement as their main motivating techniques.

I suspect the Flames may have felt the same way from a pure hockey viewpoint. But the way they run their cap situation, no way they keep a 7th defenseman making much more than league minimum. Valimaki is at $1.55 million.

His fate was sealed once Zadorov was re-signed. Sounds like they couldn't find any trade partners.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I suspect the Flames may have felt the same way from a pure hockey viewpoint. But the way they run their cap situation, no way they keep a 7th defenseman making much more than league minimum. Valimaki is at $1.55 million.

His fate was sealed once Zadorov was re-signed. Sounds like they couldn't find any trade partners.

Yeah, Valimaki's contract was big detriment to him the past couple of seasons.

Some of these young players need to think big picture when negotiating. Getting a little more money now often comes with opportunity costs that can effect their long term earning if they make themselves a cap issue.

[DeluxeMoustache]

And many other things could happen to jeopardize guaranteed earnings

It’s kind of silly to fault a player for signing a contract barely above minimum NHL wage and well below average

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yeah, Valimaki's contract was big detriment to him the past couple of seasons.

Some of these young players need to think big picture when negotiating. Getting a little more money now often comes with opportunity costs that can effect their long term earning if they make themselves a cap issue.

He's still in the NHL, earning that salary. Seems like it's working out

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes, the Flames have a problem promoting young players. Even some of our so-called success stories - Mangiapane, Kylington, Ruzicka, - are unlikely to ever play #1 PP for us. Opportunities are not earned, they're arbitrarily selected.

Sam Bennett was another totally mishandled young player. Even Dougie Hamilton was never used to his full potential here. And unlike some here, I don't think it's totally independant of Adam Fox' decision to look elsewhere - regardless of his desire to be a Ranger...

For whatever reason the Flames organizations plays favourites not based on merit but based on their gut feeling. And they load up on overpriced, underwhelming veterans.

So in your world they have to be promoted when you think they should, obtain the heights you have them pegged for or the team is uniquely unqualified and plays favourites?

Maybe just maybe you're dealing with a bit of an axe to grind here.

Every team has players go on to better things, every organization is trying to get that tweener decision right.

I was always in the middle of that epic battle between the player or the team is wrong when it came to Bennett's development. I think some mistakes were made in how he was deployed for sure.

But I don't feel that comes from playing favourites, it was in their best interests to get it right with Bennett and every player.

[Vinny01]

This feels like an issue when Sutter is with the organization. It feels even more magnified this season with some young players doing well on the farm and the big club getting significantly older in the off-season specifically swapping out Tkachuk for Kadri which is a 7 year age difference.

It does feel like with the new contracts and some of the current contracts there will be some 30 something guys moving on in the next 1-2 years for guys like Zary, Pelletier, and Coronato. If the flames want to avoid going into a long painful rebuild in the next 2-3 years they will need those guys, Wolf, Poirier etc be able to make the team and make an impact.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Tons of people, analysts, GMs, etc have spoken of the "Red Wings" model, where you have all this talent in the AHL, NHL ready guys, and they're really seasoned, and when you call them up, boom, no problem, they're ready.

As a Wings fan in that era, I personally think the well seasoned model was way overblown. Honestly, it was only possible from the pre-cap era and time not catching up to the wings as fast as it could have. They had those stacked teams and players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg on hugely team friendly deals. Heck even Lidstroms contract was always a solid value for being a perennial Norris winner.

Once time started catching up to them, we saw their model was terrible and the wheels fell off quickly.

One example from that era that feels similar to your Valimaki debate: Kyle Quincey. It was the fall of 2008 and Quincey had been a decently solid prospect for several years. He had followed the overseasoning strategy and was no longer waiver exempt. The Wings in their affinity for veteran players decided to waive Quincey so they could keep 87 year old Chris Chelios on the roster. Quincey goes to LA, gets some solid minutes and has a near 40 point season. Goes to Colorado and puts up a few decent seasons.

Along comes the 2012 trade deadline and the Wings need some depth on defense and what do they do? Get into a 3 way trade to get Quincey back. They give up a first rounder that turns into Andrei Vasilevskiy for a guy they waived a few seasons earlier!


Now, it remains to be seen if Valimaki will turn into one that got away. Doesn't really seem to be that way. But to me it points to a larger problem teams all struggle with. An unwillingness to try and let young players fail forward. And I get that if you are competitive and every game counts, you can't have a liability out there. But to me, it seems to be a HUGE double standard where vets can go out there and lay stinkers for weeks at a time, but if a rookie makes a mistake, all of a sudden he's benched and sent back down.

On an even larger scale, I really think a lot of fans needs to try and put some personal perspective on player development. Almost universally on this board is the opinion that all prospects need to give 140% and earn every single shift they get. And while that's a noble goal, remember our own life experiences when we have careers and see others get favored when they might not be deserving. To see others get 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances that we might not get. It happens all the time. And while many people can turn that into a positive motivating factor, lets not assume someone doesn't care or isn't worthy just because they got screwed over and didn't come back even harder. Almost all of us have been in situations where we knew we needed a change. Most of us have had bad bosses that just weren't our style. And in many cases we can start looking for another job and everyone can be happy. That's quite a bit harder when these players don't have control of their destiny during their developmental years.



Lastly, and you guys will really love this! What makes a good leader? Is it someone that forces their style on everyone or is it someone that see's the assets and liabilities of their team and puts them in the best positions to succeed. I think most would pick the latter. But how many times in this thread and others do we read that players have to conform to Sutters system??? Sure I get it. He has 2 more Stanley Cup rings than any of us. If we are going to use that excuse then we might as well shut the board down since none of us have NHL experience. But I think fans should really think about the validity of a strategy that is so rigid and how it might affect younger players. Some people need the hard@&$ coach that pushes them. Some might not respond as well. That doesn't make them weak or wrong. People are just different.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes, the Flames have a problem promoting young players. Even some of our so-called success stories - Mangiapane, Kylington, Ruzicka, - are unlikely to ever play #1 PP for us. Opportunities are not earned, they're arbitrarily selected.

Sam Bennett was another totally mishandled young player. Even Dougie Hamilton was never used to his full potential here. And unlike some here, I don't think it's totally independant of Adam Fox' decision to look elsewhere - regardless of his desire to be a Ranger...

For whatever reason the Flames organizations plays favourites not based on merit but based on their gut feeling. And they load up on overpriced, underwhelming veterans.

You talking about the Flames playing favourites is pretty funny. I don't think there is a poster on this site that is more committed to their 'favourites', than you.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

He's still in the NHL, earning that salary. Seems like it's working out

The one team that wanted him has a management that has been trying to lose. Not a massive endorsement

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

He's still in the NHL, earning that salary. Seems like it's working out

This is year 2 of that contract. He spent the entire year in the AHL last season because he wasn't waiver eligible yet. This year he got lucky because of waivers and that the Coyotes exist.

But still, he likely lost a whole year of NHL resume building last season if his cap hit was part of the reason he didn't make the team, wasn't called up, or wasn't traded. At that age, one year of NHL experience can cost millions on the next contract.

[Paulie Walnuts]

If we are to put those 3 players on powerplay 1 while putting Huberdeau, Kadri and Andersson on powerplay 2.

Lindholm
Ruzicka - Mangiapane - Toffoli
Kylington

Is that a winning line up? Darryl would be on the first tractor back to Viking benching those guys to ice that lineup.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But is Valimaki it?

Or did I miss some names - that is a player that wasn't promoted here that should have been that have gone on to other organizations and flourished?

Because as I said ... if there isn't a list then there really isn't a case for the organization not promoting players is there?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that of those two players one of them was given ample opportunity in Calgary and he didn't stick.

I'm not sure why Calgary is being considered a team that has a problem promoting young players.

As someone has already said, this isn't a Flames issue, this is a Phillips issue. I don't think that Phillips is guaranteed to step into the Flames lineup, in any role, and be an NHL player just because he is leading the AHL in points.

[Ped]

As many have pointed out, there aren't many players who got away from the Flames system who actually contributed somewhere else, so you can't really say they have a problem

Do they have a problem with Phillips? Clearly they do; it's not like he has to come in and be Ovechkin, but when he's producing like he does, why not give him a shot?

But that doesn't seem to be a Flames problem. The AHL is littered with high-scoring guys who never really got a fair shot, with any team. That might be a mindset where a certain type of player can't succeed, but a lot of them aren't given an actual shot, IMO of course.

But that's not a Calgary problem. It's a league problem.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Buff

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that of those two players one of them was given ample opportunity in Calgary and he didn't stick.

I'm not sure why Calgary is being considered a team that has a problem promoting young players.

As someone has already said, this isn't a Flames issue, this is a Phillips issue. I don't think that Phillips is guaranteed to step into the Flames lineup, in any role, and be an NHL player just because he is leading the AHL in points.

For sure.

Was just asking if there are any other names? Guys that got away.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The one team that wanted him has a management that has been trying to lose. Not a massive endorsement

One team? We have zero idea how many teams claimed him.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

One team? We have zero idea how many teams claimed him.

Think there's a tweet above with Treliving saying it was the only claim

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

One team? We have zero idea how many teams claimed him.

I thought it was reported that Arizona was the only claim... could be wrong.

Edit: Bingo beat me to it.

[VilleN]

Other than Phillips I don't see any issues with how the Flames develop young players. Ruzicka has been developed by the team and is blossoming. Valimaki had a higher salary and looked like dog #### in the AHL, and during training camp - he's responsible for not getting a 'fair chance' not the Flames. Over the last 10 years or so we have developed a lot of drafted players: Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Dube, Andersson, Kylington, etc. Everyone complains about player x not getting a shot until they do. Tons of posters were bitching about Kylington not getting a fair chance, he eventually did and was successful. Same with Ruzicka. Does the organization not get credit for bringing these players along properly and giving them a shot once they felt they were ready? Maybe they see something in Phillips game that they don't like and aren't prepared to risk putting him in the lineup while we're battling for a playoff position. I imagine Arizona would give him a chance, because of course they would. They are trying to lose and can afford to develop him in the NHL. I doubt many competing teams would be throwing prospects into meaningful games to develop them. Especially a player like Phillips who is tiny, and has not shown all that well in preseason auditions.

[Macho0978]

Way too many Flames fans lack patience with young players in the AHL. If you look at how the Oilers manage their prospects, it's exactly how some are suggesting the Flames should do it. The Oilers consistently bring up players that aren't ready to fill their roster. Do people think the Oilers are that bad at drafting? I believe they are that bad at developing players.

The Flames have a much longer list of players that weren't top 20 or even top 50 prospects league wide that became very good players.

The Oilers list is short, and they have a pretty long list of players that were rated high league wide that haven't panned out.