Discussion: Do the Flames have a problem promoting young players?

[ComixZone]

The conversation around CP for some time now has been whether or not the Flames have a systemic problem with promoting young players, with a particular focus on AHL player of the Month and AHL leading scorer Matthew Phillips. I figured with that discussion being featured in almost every GT/PGT/Trade Rumour topic that these quotes from Valimaki could add to that conversation and that...maybe yes, yes we do have a problem:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1599849822961696768

I find it problematic that a 1st round pick who did spend a decent amount of time in our system ended up (by the sounds of it) being treated as a prospect on the Island of Misfit Toys. I think what is going on with Phillips poses a problem. If you can go out and be the best player in the AHL, and still not recalled - then what are you actually supposed to do as a Calgary Flames prospect? Where is the hope? Where is the carrot?

Byron Bader also had a good thread about something that could be viewed as problematic:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1598745508138586112

[Kasi]

It’s probably going to lose us Coronato. Shame we can’t rectify it but it’s the direction this franchise is going.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Kasi

It’s probably going to lose us Coronato.

Wait... what?

[Kasi]

Is a guy coming from the us college ranks going to go to a team that doesn’t promote players and especially doesn’t promote undersized players? Likely not so I suspect he’s going to go the Fox route.

[TheScorpion]

I think it's extremely bold to say any of this has any bearing on Coronato's decisions

[Icon]

For the OP, yes I think the Flames have always held off too long on giving young guys a real shot. Maybe it's the GM, maybe it's coaching, but seems to have often been an issue.


Related to Coronato in the posts above - I think he leaves like Fox before we get the chance to even give him an opportunity (I doubt if they offered him a contract and spot right now he'd leave school for it). But we'll see.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Wait... what?

He is assuming that Coronato won't sign with the Flames because they have a proven track record of not promoting younger, smallish players to the NHL under Sutter as HC.

Which I don't see as an issue for Coronato being a first round pick and having a shot like his.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't think it is an issue really. At least not specific to the Flames.

Tkachuk - straight from junior to the NHL.
Monahan - straight from junior to the NHL.
Gaudreau - straight from university to the NHL.
Ruzicka - graduated from the AHL relatively young.
Kylington - graduated from the AHL relatively young.
Mangiapane - graduated from the AHL relatively young.
Dube - graduated from the AHL relatively young.
Backlund - graduated to the NHL after only 1/2 a season in the AHL.
Andersson - graduated from the AHL relatively young.

Those are are just some of the recent and current Flames.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Sutter hates young players almost was much as he hates varmints.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I think it's extremely bold to say any of this has any bearing on Coronato's decisions

Yeah and I don't think it should be where this conversation gets steered. That's a hypothetical problem for another day. I think we actively have a problem right now with players in our system being neglected.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah and I don't think it should be where this conversation gets steered. That's a hypothetical problem for another day. I think we actively have a problem right now with players in our system being neglected.

It’s part of the same question/issue. Any player who wants to sign an entry level contract here probably has to figure out if they’ll get a good shot or be stuck in the AHL for years. I don’t really think any of the explanations sound good. Are the players we draft not good enough? Well we need better drafting. Are we not drafting player types our coach like? Is our farm development not good enough and the players here take longer than other teams for some reason? It all falls back it seems to a failure in drafting or development.

[CSharp]

If that was the case that there is a systemic issue of promoting young talent, we wouldn't have seen the likes of Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Andersson, Mangiapanne, Dube, and Ruzicka in the lineups in previous and current season. The veterans have proved themselves and some of the ones that were in lineups the previous seasons with other teams that came for tryouts this past training camp also had shots at cracking the Flames lineup but didn't. So, the guys that didn't crack the lineup wasn't better than what we have now. I can't see any organization giving minor leaguers a chance if they haven't proven themselves at training camp. It's just a process of elimination of who wants to be up in the big league and who's not ready or isn't quite there yet.

For Valamaki, when he was draft, I think all of us had the highs for him to make the team. However, when he got injured seriously, it really set him back quite a bit. But hey, I think 3 coaches gave him a chance and he didn't show up when given that opportunity. You can't expect a team open up a spot when they're not on a rebuild mission. Players can pout all they want. The best thing for any young guys trying to crack any opportunities, they better show up and show what they have. This is the same for all young kids out there looking for their dream jobs. It's not given, you have to earn it.

A good player to look up to is Backlund. He's was drafted by Sutter, put into the lineup after a short stint in AHL, and remained up with the Flames all these year. And during the Sutter's earlier years, it wasn't like the team is on a rebuild mission anymore. He earned his way up to 2nd line center!

[Canada 02]

Valimaki - " I need someone to hold my hand"

[TheIronMaiden]

I think that there is some truth to this, but that there is also fan bias.
It is less entertaining to watch a veteran role player play within their means than it is to watch a prospect get a chance to play, even if the prospect is less consistent.
In camp, no prospect went out a stole a spot for themselves.
That said, Phillips has deserved a look. ( I still don't think he translates his play to the next level, but at some point there is no development left in the AHL).

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Flames have 6 drafted players on their roster including Kylington (source: CapFriendly).

A quick comparison against teams in our division (I'm including those on IR);
Anaheim - 9
Edmonton - 13
LA - 12
SJ - 7
Seattle - 15 (includes Expansion and probably not a legit participant in this discussion)
Vancouver - 6
Vegas - 7

High performing teams;
Boston - 9
Colorado - 8
NJ - 12
Tampa - 10

This sample size averages to 8.45. I didn't include Seattle.

So we're below average. I think what skews the Flames number is the fact we just traded 3 "drafted players" for 3 "signed" players (using CapFriendly nomenclature). Teams like New Jersey and LA are just coming out of rebuild years. Edmonton is so top heavy they can't afford anyone but a minor leaguer. In a couple of years, we'll likely normalize to average once the dust settles from trading 3 drafted players.

I think the discussion is amplified as the team struggles to score with the AHL's top scorer just down the hall. And, that's not unreasonable.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Sutter hates young players almost was much as he hates varmints.

I'm sure he shot a few gophers on his farm in his younger days when he's not coaching

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The Flames don't but Sutter does.

[FanIn80]

Incidentally, I just looked up Coronato's stats, and he's 5th overall in P/GP in the entire NCAA with 1.36 (6G 9A 15P in 11GP).

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CSharp

If that was the case that there is a systemic issue of promoting young talent, we wouldn't have seen the likes of Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Andersson, Mangiapanne, Dube, and Ruzicka in the lineups in previous and current season. The veterans have proved themselves and some of the ones that were in lineups the previous seasons with other teams that came for tryouts this past training camp also had shots at cracking the Flames lineup but didn't. So, the guys that didn't crack the lineup wasn't better than what we have now. I can't see any organization giving minor leaguers a chance if they haven't proven themselves at training camp. It's just a process of elimination of who wants to be up in the big league and who's not ready or isn't quite there yet.

For Valamaki, when he was draft, I think all of us had the highs for him to make the team. However, when he got injured seriously, it really set him back quite a bit. But hey, I think 3 coaches gave him a chance and he didn't show up when given that opportunity. You can't expect a team open up a spot when they're not on a rebuild mission. Players can pout all they want. The best thing for any young guys trying to crack any opportunities, they better show up and show what they have. This is the same for all young kids out there looking for their dream jobs. It's not given, you have to earn it.

A good player to look up to is Backlund. He's was drafted by Sutter, put into the lineup after a short stint in AHL, and remained up with the Flames all these year. And during the Sutter's earlier years, it wasn't like the team is on a rebuild mission anymore. He earned his way up to 2nd line center!

I've said it before, preseason games to a prospect are game 7 of the stanley cup finals, the most important games of your career. You need to be able to play well on command. If you can't prove that, then a coach who looks for stability and consistency isn't going to trust you over a professional.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

So we're below average. I think what skews the Flames number is the fact we just traded 3 "drafted players" for 3 "signed" players (using CapFriendly nomenclature).

That, and the Flames don't tend to draft high. It's easier to graduate blue chip prospects.