[GDT] Washington Capitals at Calgary Flames 8:00pm TV: SNW/E/O, CBC, TVAS2 - RADIO SN960

[Aarongavey]

Maybe we need a social media campaign to put Lucic on the first line that is backed by the support of sports media in town. Maybe then the Flames brain trust will get their backs against the wall and sit him to show that they won’t be pushed around by the armchair critics.

[Erick Estrada]

Seeing Lucic in the lineup night after night when they are winning games is just barely tolerable. When they are losing games it makes me really wonder about the coach and the organization in general. Seems like the Flames are one of the few teams still operating with the old dinosaur mentality in a fast and skilled league.

[flamesgod]

Ritchie has been our best 4th line forward. I love Sutter but Lucic needs to sit. He would benefit from the rest. I think Lucic should be rotated out so he has more to give if this team makes the playoffs.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jetfire

I still miss Hathaway.

This place is weird

Hathaway is way overpaid and has 2 goals in 25 games

Meanwhile Ritchie and Lewis with 4 and 5 goals are hated...bit of a grass is greener thing IMO

I realise this post basically guarantees him scoring tonight

[Erick Estrada]

Yeah Hathaway isn’t what the Flames need right now.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Last in SCF%
Last in HDCF%
Last in xGF%

Isolating for defensive results is fine, but that's if you want to exclude scoring as part of the role of the fourth line. And either way, his xGA/60 figure is still really, really bad (as is the second line's).

It might be getting to be a little much because it hasn't changed. But there's no metric by which Milan Lucic is an NHL player these days, and it's weird that Darryl hasn't taken him out.

So maybe don't walk out "every single statistical category" when you really mean ones that matter to you?

I don't see 4th liners as being relevant for offensive split categories.

Put in the 7-9 minutes and don't hurt the team.

And it's only weird if you refuse to see hockey as anything beyond stats. I get that it's a popular view these days ... intangibles mean nothing ... but I'm not fully on board with that yet.

The fourth line hasn't been good for sure, but they're not unique to league wide averages. Lucic has an xga60 of 2.84 which is 287th spot 406 forwards that have played 100 minutes.

[TheScorpion]

Then we have different goals for the fourth line, because I think it should be constructed with the goal of helping the team instead of not hurting you. It should be able to score.

And come on, I watch the games. Lucic on the ice actually looks worse than his numbers. He's not an NHL player.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yup. He’s been terrible, provides nothing, and hasn’t even fought. He should sit and isn’t an everyday NHLer anymore

You'll forgive me for not being blown away that Lucic isn't dominant in offensive categories?

He's a fourth line player. xGA60 is king in my mind. You don't give players 7 minutes if you expect them to run the show in offensive and high danger splits.

If they do that they're no longer 4th line players.

You hope they fill a special teams roll on the PK, add some leadership and don't burn you five on five defensively.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So maybe don't walk out "every single statistical category" when you really mean ones that matter to you?

I don't see 4th liners as being relevant for offensive split categories.

Put in the 7-9 minutes and don't hurt the team.

And it's only weird if you refuse to see hockey as anything beyond stats. I get that it's a popular view these days ... intangibles mean nothing ... but I'm not fully on board with that yet.

The fourth line hasn't been good for sure, but they're not unique to league wide averages. Lucic has an xga60 of 2.84 which is 287th spot 406 forwards that have played 100 minutes.

If I am reading that correctly that means that in a 32 team league he would be the 3rd worst forward on the ice in xga60. On an average team you would expect 9 forwards to be better than him in that category.

[dino7c]

Hard for Lucic to fight when nobody will fight him...I do enjoy when he joins a scrum and everyone is like "nope" and that's the end of it

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Then we have different goals for the fourth line, because I think it should be constructed with the goal of helping the team instead of not hurting you. It should be able to score.

And come on, I watch the games. Lucic on the ice actually looks worse than his numbers. He's not an NHL player.

He's a fourth line player!

I like your goals for the fourth line, but it isn't practical in a salary capped world with roughly 46 minutes of five on five ice time a night. We can dream about utopia or talk about restrictions on roster construction.

I'm much more concerned with the graph I put up two weeks ago showing the Flames using their 1st and 2nd line less than other teams than I am about building a fourth line that can score.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If I am reading that correctly that means that in a 32 team league he would be the 3rd worst forward on the ice in xga60. On an average team you would expect 9 forwards to be better than him in that category.

He would be, on average the 9th best forward defensively on the average NHL team.

I don't see that as a problem for a fourth line player.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He's a fourth line player!

I like your goals for the fourth line, but it isn't practical in a salary capped world with roughly 46 minutes of five on five ice time a night. We can dream about utopia or talk about restrictions on roster construction.

I'm much more concerned with the graph I put up two weeks ago showing the Flames using their 1st and 2nd line less than other teams than I am about building a fourth line that can score.

It isn't practical in a cap world unless you promote young players on ELCs and don't use the fourth line as an offence-free zone. The Flames had four lines that were able to score when they had Mangiapane on L4 with Ryan and Hathaway. Why haven't they tried that again since?

I agree with respect to how Darryl is deploying the top two lines, though. The 88-91-29 line just doesn't work at all.

[Erick Estrada]

I know I’m being a little irrational but seeing Lucic on this team this season is killing my enthusiasm for the team. I hate that he’s a regular in the lineup. I have Brower/Neal level contempt for the guy. I know he’s a good guy but it’s a crime he’s still getting a regular shift in this league.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

I just want the offensive players on this team to put the puck in the net. Even if Vladar lets in a weak one or two tonight maybe try to help him out. Feel free to score 3 or 4.

So many forwards have been so underwhelming lately.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It isn't practical in a cap world unless you promote young players on ELCs and don't use the fourth line as an offence-free zone. The Flames had four lines that were able to score when they had Mangiapane on L4 with Ryan and Hathaway. Why haven't they tried that again since?

I agree with respect to how Darryl is deploying the top two lines, though. The 88-91-29 line just doesn't work at all.

The fourth line is a cheap hockey player zone that won't ...

a) hurt you defensively (hopefully)
b) destroy the development of your prospects with limited opportunity.

If you want to play your top six forwards more you play your bottom three less.

If a prospect blows you away in camp you try and fit them in on the top three lines.

If that doesn't happen you break camp with the established players and hope that a prospect is ready when someone gets hurt.

We haven't seen the injury yet, but some kids are progressing very well.

What isn't practical (or a necessity) about all that?

[TheScorpion]

You destroy the development of your prospects by giving them no opportunity. The fourth line faces the easiest competition every night — it figures that it'd be the natural place to ease a kid into the league.

[Erick Estrada]

The problem with Darryl is that he still thinks it’s a 3-2 league when it’s a 4-3 league. Teams are scoring over 3 goals a game this season.

[dino7c]

Flames are getting enough chances to score 3.5/game

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames are getting enough chances to score 3.5/game

Clearly they aren’t as the are are averaging 2.87 GPG.