[PGT] 2 big bedard points

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think it's pretty hard to make the case that there is a sag in skill with Huberdeau. Same centerman. And Toffoli has earned his trust.

There is no question that Sutter is asking them to play a north south game - Huberdeau has talked about it. We can see it.

The top line had freedom to play east-west last year. These guys don't. IT's pretty clear to see.

They didn't have freedom inside their own zone. They didn't have freedom in turning pucks over in the grey areas.

Sutter tossed Gaudreau under the bus for mistakes in his 500th game or whatever it was. Turning pucks over.

Once across the blueline they have freedom.

I don't think that has changed at all.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I don’t think negotiating your RFA years like this is a sign of exit that you think it is. It’s just a new reality in the league for star players who want to get that max FA contract. Instead of going to UFA and getting that big contract they can get a big short term RFA contract and then an even bigger UFA contract. I just think Tkachuk had a mix of not liking the franchise/coach which made him open to leaving.

He put a plan in motion before Sutter came on board. That's a fact.

He left because of a mix of not liking the franchise/coach ... isn't.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Kasi

Last year he was willing to let the Gaudreau line play a different style because while it was not dump and chase it did a very good job of puck control and limiting chances again. No one in the team is getting that same leeway this year. And has shown above the team was absolutely reliant on that since the other three lines were dead neutral in goal differential.

I don’t think the top line was afforded the ability to play different, they just happened to have skilled players who could do different that others couldn’t dream of doing. Gaudreau and Tkachuk for instance, who on this team right now has the poise and ability to break down defensive structures and draw double teams like these 2 could, no one. These were special players doing special things each night and the opposition had the unenviable task of trying to contain them both of them every shift.

Based on what I saw, they also played Darryl’s checking style to a T last year. They were easily the best checking line I’ve ever personally seen, hence their absolutely absurd even strength goal differential. They defined the “give them nothing, but take everything from them” mentality. They checked really well in all 3 zones and turned every opportunity into a counter attack.

It’s just different this year though, no one line on this team can go full Matrix on the opposition, so they have to score the more conventional way, work hard, lots of pucks to the net, traffic, crowd the crease, greasy goals and etc etc. There’s no doubt it’s the harder way to score which is why this team is having a helluva time doing so despite constantly outworking and outshooting their opponents.

As you said, the team was very reliant on the top line last season, he also knew it, so why would Darryl take that away? Because he wants to score less? No, it’s more so the players needing to dump and chase because they have no other choice. After-all, it takes a lot of ability to score on the rush and the 2 best guys at that are now gone.

[Kasi]

So yeah what I said. They could play that style because it was both a scoring line and a puck control checking line in one. Huberdeau can’t do that so they’re just trying to force him to play a style he’s not good at. Like Cali said Huberdeau thrived in a kind of chaos that Sutter won’t accept. So maybe the blame should be on Trev for doing a trade for a player incompatible with Sutter but paying 10.5 for a player who is going to struggle in this system doesn’t seem wise.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They didn't have freedom inside their own zone. They didn't have freedom in turning pucks over in the grey areas.

Sutter tossed Gaudreau under the bus for mistakes in his 500th game or whatever it was. Turning pucks over.

Once across the blueline they have freedom.

I don't think that has changed at all.

Yeah I’m in agreement. Darryl doesn’t go out of his way to purposefully neuter his offense, it would be counterproductive to winning.

The top line played differently last season because they could. Going east-west is considerably more difficult than going north-south, but when you had Gaudreau and to a lesser extent Tkachuk who could hold on to pucks, who could skate well laterally and who could cut through the middle of the ice and create chaos, then you can choose to play differently.

But based on what I’ve seen, the current crop cannot do that. So they’re forced to play the conventional dump and chase style that virtually all the teams deploy. Every team plays dump and chase to a certain extent, it’s just a matter of how often.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Kasi

So yeah what I said. They could play that style because it was both a scoring line and a puck control checking line in one. Huberdeau can’t do that so they’re just trying to force him to play a style he’s not good at. Like Cali said Huberdeau thrived in a kind of chaos that Sutter won’t accept. So maybe the blame should be on Trev for doing a trade for a player incompatible with Sutter but paying 10.5 for a player who is going to struggle in this system doesn’t seem wise.

So now a player doesn't fit in Sutter's rigid system when earlier you were convinced that the stats are wrong and your eye test has him changing the system?

And yeah blame Treliving for a terrible trade.

Hey Brad here's your shopping list ...

1) Move Tkachuk to a team he'll play with
2) Get back enough to make us competitive
3) Make sure you have the clairvoyance to know if players will fit in Sutter's system

That would be an active trade market!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yeah I’m in agreement. Darryl doesn’t go out of his way to purposefully neuter his offense, it would be counterproductive to winning.

The top line played differently last season because they could. Going east-west is considerably more difficult than going north-south, but when you had Gaudreau and to a lesser extent Tkachuk who could hold on to pucks, who could skate well laterally and who could cut through the middle of the ice and create chaos, then you can choose to play differently.

But based on what I’ve seen, the current crop cannot do that. So they’re forced to play the conventional dump and chase style that virtually all the teams deploy. Every team plays dump and chase to a certain extent, it’s just a matter of how often.

Yeah that's my gut.

I'm hoping it's chemistry and time. Cali's comments gives me some hope that Huberdeau will adjust in the second half.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Call up the wranglers or throw in the towel

These guys can’t score

Please never put Bedard points in the title. It's depressing this early in the season 😕

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

well I'd prefer that we either finish in a playoff spot or in the bottom 10 to have a shot at these franchise players available

no middle ground please .. for the love of god

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Kasi

So yeah what I said. They could play that style because it was both a scoring line and a puck control checking line in one. Huberdeau can’t do that so they’re just trying to force him to play a style he’s not good at. Like Cali said Huberdeau thrived in a kind of chaos that Sutter won’t accept. So maybe the blame should be on Trev for doing a trade for a player incompatible with Sutter but paying 10.5 for a player who is going to struggle in this system doesn’t seem wise.

Yeah, but I don’t think anyone is necessarily forcing Huberdeau to play a different style at all, he just has to because otherwise, what’s the alternative? Turnover and goal against?

I think Huberdeau just happened to have played in the perfect system for him last season. In Florida, he got to play wide open, rope-a-dope hockey where teams traded chances a lot. So he was often able to counter attack with odd man rushes or finding linemates behind the defense.

That’s not what he’s getting in Calgary though. Darryl doesn’t play rope-a-dope, so we don’t see a lot of end to end action, so Huberdeau’s not going to have the same number of opportunities he once had.

But yeah, I’m in agreement with you on your last point about Tre. He must have thought he was getting a Gaudreau replacement, after all, they both had 115 points. But not all 100 point players are the same, play style matters and I’m not sure Treliving took that into account when he re-signed him.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yeah, but I don’t think anyone is necessarily forcing Huberdeau to play a different style at all, he just has to because otherwise, what’s the alternative? Turnover and goal against?

I think Huberdeau just happened to have played in the perfect system for him last season. In Florida, he got to play wide open, rope-a-dope hockey where teams traded chances a lot. So he was often able to counter attack with odd man rushes or finding linemates behind the defense.

That’s not what he’s getting in Calgary though. Darryl doesn’t play rope-a-dope, so we don’t see a lot of end to end action, so Huberdeau’s not going to have the same number of opportunities he once had.

But yeah, I’m in agreement with you on your last point about Tre. He must have thought he was getting a Gaudreau replacement, after all, they both had 115 points. But not all 100 point players are the same, play style matters and I’m not sure Treliving took that into account when he re-signed him.

You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to try and justify your (incorrect) view of Huberdeau

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to try and justify your (incorrect) view of Huberdeau

I think the biggest thing about Huberdeau is his personality. He cares. He worries about disappointing people.

Tkachuk is more of a who gives a rip type of person, when you think of it of course he'd adjust more quickly.

But clearly Florida traded chances and created more counter opportunities than the game style in Calgary (or most other NHL cities)

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to try and justify your (incorrect) view of Huberdeau

And what exactly makes you think your view of Huberdeau is correct vs my opinion? After-all, his current performance is exactly what I anticipated from Huberdeau last off season and why I was weary of re-signing him before the he even played a game with the team.

You’re the one sitting here thinking that Darryl Sutter has taken away his freedom to play east-west, ignoring the idea that this is largely a read and react sport where you take what the defense gives you. Darryl isn’t forcing these guys to break out and transition in the way that he wants, how could he control this when all teams attack the opposition differently without the puck.

[Tsawwassen]

Postgame links
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...ec-1-1.6671438
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/games/2466011/
https://www.espn.com/nhl/recap/_/gameId/401458955