[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hackey

And if you want to make every excuse for the Flames and give no credit to the Oilers, then sure. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Stars were a shot away from eliminating the Flames in the first round. That is a very average team.

A very average team riding an all-world goalie. The only reason Dallas was ever close to winning that series was because Oettinger turned in one of the most spectacular, dominating goaltender performances in the past couple decades. He looked incredible, and the underlying numbers bear out what we all saw.


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[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Jesus. Why didn't someone obliterate the cripple. He could only coast around out there.

That's ####ing embarrassing.

Markstrom needs to answer the bell vs EDM next season.

I'm convinced that if we started Vlader after Game 1 we would have beat the Oilers in 6.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

No, it's not just plain and simple.

Sure, but when do excuses just become a pattern?

Every team that loses has excuses (except the Oilers actually didn't have any against COL). A legitimate team is going to make it past G5 of Rd2 sooner than later.

People love to point to WAS and STL as examples of be patient.

WAS made the playoffs 9/10 seasons before winning the cup; they never lost in less than 7 games in rd 1. 6 of those years they won a round - only once did the lose R2 in less than 6 games.

STL missed by 1 pt the year before their cup, but made the previous 6 - counting backwards:

R2 G6 (Preds SCF)
R3 G6 (Sharks SCF)
R1 G6 (Wild)
R1 G6 (Hawks)
R1 G6 (Kings)
R2 Swept (Kings SCC)

And they did make major changes along the way.


My point is those WAS and STL earned some degree of forgiveness for their excuses. CGY hasn't, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by djsFlames

A win was stolen, there is no debating that.

3-2, all things being equal. We don't know the outcome beyond that. Could've swung, could've been more of the same.

I'm not sure it was an absolute guarantee the Flames protect a 5-4 lead for 5:57...it's a travesty that we didn't get to find out.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by bax

Yes the Stars are a very average team, but you can’t gloss over the fact they also had a historical goaltender performance. Literally one of the best series played by a goalie ever

Behind any of the 15 other playoff teams, Oettinger's performance gives you an automatic win in round 1.

The Flames essentially broke through a brick wall in net to move on. Only the Stars were so outplayed and stymied offensively that they couldn't win off of that performance in net.

And yet they nearly did only because it was that good.

I guess baby steps for the Flames. Learned how to play the right way in round 1. Now they have to learn how to do it in round 2, because I'd say 11/15 periods were a no show.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

People love to point to WAS and STL as examples of be patient.

WAS made the playoffs 9/10 seasons before winning the cup; they never lost in less than 7 games in rd 1. 6 of those years they won a round - only once did the lose R2 in less than 6 games.

STL missed by 1 pt the year before their cup, but made the previous 6 - counting backwards:

R2 G6 (Preds SCF)
R3 G6 (Sharks SCF)
R1 G6 (Wild)
R1 G6 (Hawks)
R1 G6 (Kings)
R2 Swept (Kings SCC)

And they did make major changes along the way.


My point is those WAS and STL earned some degree of forgiveness for their excuses. CGY hasn't, plain and simple.

The bolded is a pretty funny way of saying they spent 9 years unable to get out of the second round before they won’t the cup, which included a 1st round exit and a complete miss right in the middle of that stretch.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The bolded is a pretty funny way of saying they spent 9 years unable to get out of the second round before they won’t the cup, which included a 1st round exit and a complete miss right in the middle of that stretch.

Three 1st rd exits actually. Though I didn't even mention 3 President's Trophies. The point is that not all futility is equal.

Let's rank CGY's last 8 seasons vs. WAS 8 seasons pre-cup. You could quibble about a few of the rankings depending on how you weigh reg season vs. PO's, but I think they fall nicely into three groupings (# = Pres Trophy):

WAS 118# / R2 PIT in 7
WAS 120# / R2 PIT in 6
WAS 101 / R2 NYR in 7
WAS 92 / R2 NYR in 7
CGY 111 / R2 EDM in 5 (after beating DAL in 7)
WAS 121# / MTL in 7

WAS 107 / R2 TBL sweep (after beating NYR in 5)
CGY 97 / R2 ANA in 5 (after beating VAN in 7)
WAS 57 in 48 (97.4 pace) / NYR in 7
CGY 107 / COL in 5

CGY 0.564 (92.5 pace) / DAL in 6 (+ Jets series)
CGY 94 / ANA sweep
WAS 90
CGY 84
CGY 55 in 56
CGY 77


CGY has 1 season remotely close to WAS's best 5-6 seasons. WAS worst is still better than CGY's worst 3. CGY's high watermark was basically WAS's median.

WAS median years were Pres Trophy / R1G7 and 92 / R2G7.
CGY median years were 94ish pt seasons and losing in 4-6 games.


FWIW the WAS seasons I excluded from '08 and '09 would rank:
WAS 108 / R2 PIT in 7 (IMO better than Flames best year)
WAS 94 / PHI in 7 (somewhere between losing to COL and beating VAN years)

[GioforPM]

This has gone far afield of the actual question - at the 2022 TDL, was Calgary looking good enough to spend to get middle six scoring help.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This has gone far afield of the actual question - at the 2022 TDL, was Calgary looking good enough to spend to get middle six scoring help.

Absolutely

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Absolutely

Especially considering how the team was constructed. They were not in early years of a build.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Three 1st rd exits actually. Though I didn't even mention 3 President's Trophies. The point is that not all futility is equal.

Let's rank CGY's last 8 seasons vs. WAS 8 seasons pre-cup. You could quibble about a few of the rankings depending on how you weigh reg season vs. PO's, but I think they fall nicely into three groupings (# = Pres Trophy):

WAS 118# / R2 PIT in 7
WAS 120# / R2 PIT in 6
WAS 101 / R2 NYR in 7
WAS 92 / R2 NYR in 7
CGY 111 / R2 EDM in 5 (after beating DAL in 7)
WAS 121# / MTL in 7

WAS 107 / R2 TBL sweep (after beating NYR in 5)
CGY 97 / R2 ANA in 5 (after beating VAN in 7)
WAS 57 in 48 (97.4 pace) / NYR in 7
CGY 107 / COL in 5

CGY 0.564 (92.5 pace) / DAL in 6 (+ Jets series)
CGY 94 / ANA sweep
WAS 90
CGY 84
CGY 55 in 56
CGY 77


CGY has 1 season remotely close to WAS's best 5-6 seasons. WAS worst is still better than CGY's worst 3. CGY's high watermark was basically WAS's median.

WAS median years were Pres Trophy / R1G7 and 92 / R2G7.
CGY median years were 94ish pt seasons and losing in 4-6 games.


FWIW the WAS seasons I excluded from '08 and '09 would rank:
WAS 108 / R2 PIT in 7 (IMO better than Flames best year)
WAS 94 / PHI in 7 (somewhere between losing to COL and beating VAN years)

It's very relieving to see some posters explicitly recognizing our reality (followed by others immediately claiming off topic lol, despite actively debating the other side of the same issue in the same thread). It is entertaining to me that we are trying to make our horrendous post-season record look good because of Washington, who had a generational player for years and still managed to win just win one cup. A well-managed Washington should have won 3-4 cups easy and trying to squeeze out an arguement that we're possibly like them (thus everything is okay) is...silly.


A growing number of posters here have said, that at very very minimum, the Flames were not cup favorites. Now others may agree, but point out that they were at the late stages of a previous rebuild, thus should go all in.

I would like to point out that just because the team is in the late stages of a previous rebuild (imho a failed rebuild which did not account for post season requirements), it doesn't necessarily mean that you should go all in. It can mean quite the opposite, actually. Late stages of a rebuild, in our case, spells out bleak future. Why? Because we have very little in the way of prospects (this isn't the first pick we've sold), after multiple years of short term decisions "going for it".

If you're at the late stages of your rebuild, your prospect cupboard is bare, and you're not cup favorites....one might say that these factors are aweful good reasons to keep any picks you still have, unless you want to go into another full blown scortched earth rebuild in the near future (and even then you probably want those picks)

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This has gone far afield of the actual question - at the 2022 TDL, was Calgary looking good enough to spend to get middle six scoring help.

Absolutely they were. Take you chance when you have it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

It's very relieving to see some posters explicitly recognizing our reality (followed by others immediately claiming off topic lol, despite actively debating the other side of the same issue in the same thread).


A growing number of posters here have said, that at very very minimum, the Flames were not cup favorites. Now others may agree, but point out that they were at the late stages of a previous rebuild, thus should go all in.

I would like to point out that just because the team is in the late stages of a previous rebuild (imho a failed rebuild which did not account for post season requirements), it doesn't necessarily mean that you should go all in. It can mean quite the opposite, actually. Late stages of a rebuild, in our case, spells out bleak future. Why? Because we have very little in the way of prospects (this isn't the first pick we've sold), after multiple years of short term decisions "going for it".

If you're at the late stages of your rebuild, your prospect cupboard is bare, and you're not cup favorites....one might say that these factors are aweful good reasons to keep any picks you still have, unless you want to go into another full blown scortched earth rebuild in the near future (and even then you probably want those picks)

They didn’t go all in. They traded for a clear need and still have the asset acquired.

Fair to say it’s a bad trade and they shouldn’t have done it. It’s more compelling if you express this during the season vs. benefit of hindsight.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Three 1st rd exits actually. Though I didn't even mention 3 President's Trophies. The point is that not all futility is equal.

10 years of being unable to solve the second round. Pretty “plain and simple” if you ask me.

Had the best goal scorer in the world, maybe of all time, for 12 years before they made it past the second. Clearly they should’ve rebuilt and traded him off before then. Wasn’t “cut out” for the playoffs. Couldn’t lead his team far enough.

A failed rebuild, as it were. So they should’ve closed up shop before those 10 years were up.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

They didn’t go all in. They traded for a clear need and still have the asset acquired.

Fair to say it’s a bad trade and they shouldn’t have done it. It’s more compelling if you express this during the season vs. benefit of hindsight.

Exactly.

The Flames are far from having gone ‘all in’. The Flames traded assets for a controlled player who addressed a team need now and moving forward. They improved the team. They did do while also hanging on to their best future assets, which I have as; Pelletier, Zary, Coronato, Wolf, Mackey, Valimaki, and their 2023 1st. They had a pretty good idea at the time of the trade they were giving up a pick that was almost certainly going to be in the mid-twenty’s.

Put another way; had the Flames not made this move, the same posters who are now criticizing them for doing so, would likely be criticizing them for not adding to the roster.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

10 years of being unable to solve the second round. Pretty “plain and simple” if you ask me.

Had the best goal scorer in the world, maybe of all time, for 12 years before they made it past the second. Clearly they should’ve rebuilt and traded him off before then. Wasn’t “cut out” for the playoffs. Couldn’t lead his team far enough.

A failed rebuild, as it were. So they should’ve closed up shop before those 10 years were up.

I disagree. That Capitals team had a lot of consistent success, both regular season and obviously to a lesser degree, the playoffs. IMO the comparison to the Flames is a poor one. I see a difference between knocking on the door and being up and down.

If you want to argue the Flames are in a different trajectory now sure. I hope so, but I’m also nervous about how this club tunes out coaches. Sutter has had better teams than this sour on him before.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

They didn’t go all in. They traded for a clear need and still have the asset acquired.

Fair to say it’s a bad trade and they shouldn’t have done it. It’s more compelling if you express this during the season vs. benefit of hindsight.

I think it's premature to say it's a bad trade as they are going to get several more years of production out of the player acquired and/or an opportunity to re-coup that value.

I would say the 1st in that spot in this draft is the equivalent to a 2nd round pick. I would further add that the fact that the Flames shed so many 2022 picks, and haven't made much of an effort to get any back, probably underscores how this team feels about this draft.

At that spot in this draft you are looking at a bottom 6 forward and/or 4-6 dman. Or you might find someone with upside, but with some very high risk factors. That's the reality of this draft.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

They didn’t go all in. They traded for a clear need and still have the asset acquired.

Fair to say it’s a bad trade and they shouldn’t have done it. It’s more compelling if you express this during the season vs. benefit of hindsight.

You would think so, but I did in fact express this the moment the trade occurred, and received rabid backlash on here. Beyond arguing, just... F U basically, is what I got.

So now with hindsight I'm just following up, and only now people are willing to respond even in the form of arguement/discussion.

It was plain as day in the heat of the moment, but thing were also pretty feverish then.

For those wondering what my motives are in bringing this up, sure some of it is just passing time but I'm a pretty big advocate of teams consistently building futures instead of consistently sacrificing them. It might take 5-8 years but I think we'll see some cups once we finally, finally start doing that consistently. Unfortunately it is not condusive with the contract structures of most GMs.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it's premature to say it's a bad trade as they are going to get several more years of production out of the player acquired and/or an opportunity to re-coup that value.

I would say the 1st in that spot in this draft is the equivalent to a 2nd round pick. I would further add that the fact that the Flames shed so many 2022 picks, and haven't made much of an effort to get any back, probably underscores how this team feels about this draft.

At that spot in this draft you are looking at a bottom 6 forward and/or 4-6 dman. Or you might find someone with upside, but with some very high risk factors. That's the reality of this draft.

This is not the first time the Flames have sold a ton of picks to "go for it", and not a single time did it look good in hindsight except Maybe the Hamilton acquisition (only because Hamilton was super young at the time).

Look back at all the other times the Flames gave up firsts, and you will see they missed out on some incredible players, including Toffoli himself. I highly doubt their scouts are happy about what's been done this year.

I would like to think fans who plan on being here the next 10 years shouldn't be happy either.

[really?]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

This is not the first time the Flames have sold a ton of picks to "go for it", and not a single time did it look good in hindsight except Maybe the Hamilton acquisition (only because Hamilton was super young at the time).

Look back at all the other times the Flames gave up firsts, and you will see they missed out on some incredible players, including Toffoli himself. I highly doubt their scouts are happy about what's been done this year.

I would like to think fans who plan on being here the next 10 years shouldn't be happy either.

I agree with your thinking, but Treliving had a window to convince Gaudreau that this team is committed to, and capable of, winning. The team peaked going into the deadline giving him a clear directive to focus on the present, costing a bit of the future. In one respect the results would have been the same had he done nothing, (no cup) but his deadline moves were likely as much about retaining the core of this team as winning the prize.

In hindsight maybe the Flames achieve the same, or even more, if no deals are made, but Treliving wasn't in the position to wait and see given the contract status of Gaudreau, and the dominoe of Tkachuk ready to fall. I share your belief that true, sustained success is birthed from finding and growing your own talent, but I find it difficult to criticize the logic the Flames employed at the deadline given their situation.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by really?

I agree with your thinking, but Treliving had a window to convince Gaudreau that this team is committed to, and capable of, winning. The team peaked going into the deadline giving him a clear directive to focus on the present, costing a bit of the future. In one respect the results would have been the same had he done nothing, (no cup) but his deadline moves were likely as much about retaining the core of this team as winning the prize.

In hindsight maybe the Flames achieve the same, or even more, if no deals are made, but Treliving wasn't in the position to wait and see given the contract status of Gaudreau, and the dominoe of Tkachuk ready to fall. I share your belief that true, sustained success is birthed from finding and growing your own talent, but I find it difficult to criticize the logic the Flames employed at the deadline given their situation.

The Toffoli and Jarnkrok deals turned out to be bad

But it’s understandable why they had to go for it. They just didn’t get the right players. But yeah they were not going to win the cup regardless. Even Sutter said it’s a waste of 8 days playing the Avalanches