Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 07-06-2020, 04:06 PM   #3921
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Defund also doesn't mean retool.

Which is what SHOULD be said. But its not. Because those people dominating the headlines are those that want to literally defund and don't care what is left.
I feel like “Abolish Police” hits a lot harder and would have been the obvious choice, had that been the intent.
Scroopy Noopers is offline  
Old 07-06-2020, 04:27 PM   #3922
jayswin
Celebrated Square Root Day
 
jayswin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik- View Post
They should probably stop using the word defund and go back to reform.
Yep, Azure is a textbook example of why they should have used a better word.
jayswin is offline  
Old 07-06-2020, 04:28 PM   #3923
nik-
Franchise Player
 
nik-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin View Post
Yep, Azure is a textbook example of why they should have used a better word.
Well, he's a textbook example because defund has a textbook definition. And it's what he's saying it is, not what the intent is behind those slogans. The fact that people are wondering why people are taking the word defund as its meaning is really odd.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji View Post
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
nik- is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to nik- For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 04:30 PM   #3924
TorqueDog
Franchise Player
 
TorqueDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary - Centre West
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik- View Post
They should probably stop using the word defund and go back to reform.
Agreed, it is tiresome to keep having to explain what the actual stated goals are to people who automatically jump to the conclusion that "defund the police" means people really want to remove every last dollar of funding. Even when you tell them otherwise, they put their fingers in their ears and still pretend it does.

Defund is the wrong word, but it's the word we're stuck with for now.
__________________
-James
GO
FLAMES GO.
TorqueDog is offline  
Old 07-06-2020, 04:32 PM   #3925
Crown Royal
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin View Post
Yep, Azure is a textbook example of why they should have used a better word.
Azure is a classic case of someone taking something and blowing it out of proportion to distract from what is important. It's a tactic used by the ALM crowd constantly. They probably also share the bull#### posts trying to save Aunt Jemima that fraudulently claim it made the depicted woman a millionaire.
Crown Royal is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Crown Royal For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 04:34 PM   #3926
Crown Royal
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik- View Post
Well, he's a textbook example because defund has a textbook definition. And it's what he's saying it is, not what the intent is behind those slogans. The fact that people are wondering why people are taking the word defund as its meaning is really odd.
This is a poster that the other day defended cops running over protesters, they know exactly what is meant but are manipulating things to change the conversation away from what matters.
Crown Royal is offline  
Old 07-06-2020, 04:56 PM   #3927
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown Royal View Post
This is a poster that the other day defended cops running over protesters, they know exactly what is meant but are manipulating things to change the conversation away from what matters.
Yup, also the same poster who attributed the looting to Anti-fa (and when people said "yeah, probably in part" said "Oh it must be so hard to admit left-wing anarchists are the problem!"), said the police brutality wasn't against peaceful protestors, said the protests which remain primarily peaceful are no longer about the issue but just about wrecking stuff, blamed the media for reporting on police brutality and "making the situation worse," and, despite being explained what "defund" means in this context with people admitting the term is a poor one, continues to define it only by the dictionary.

At a certain point, it's pretty clear what this poster's intentions are. Not one post focused on the issue being protested that I can see. Just post after post blaming the media, focusing on any act of violence from protestors, and excusing clear abuses by police as "what else could they do?"
PepsiFree is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 05:02 PM   #3928
81MC
#1 Goaltender
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Exp:
Default

Maybe what is meant could be the proper definition of a word? It has nothing to do with manipulating things to change a narrative, and everything to do with the reality of definitions.

Like, they do kind of exist for a reason, no?
__________________
No, no…I’m not sloppy, or lazy. This is a sign of the boredom.
81MC is offline  
Old 07-06-2020, 05:12 PM   #3929
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 81MC View Post
Maybe what is meant could be the proper definition of a word? It has nothing to do with manipulating things to change a narrative, and everything to do with the reality of definitions.

Like, they do kind of exist for a reason, no?
As has been explained, yes, it could, and yes, it some cases people literally want the police to receive zero funding and have that money to go entirely to other areas that would better help the community. But no, that is not what most people are advocating for.

For example, this would be what a popular "extreme defunding" call looks like from the activist side:

Quote:
DEFUND THE POLICE
  • Immediately redirect a minimum of 50 percent of the $1.1 billion TPS budget toward the communities they have devastated by investing in secure, long-term housing for street-involved and unhoused communities, food security programs, public transit, public health, public libraries, and community-led anti-violence programs.

DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE
  • End Emergency Task Force (ETF) and Emergency Response Teams (ERT) (similar to the US-based SWAT teams), tactical squads, military grade weapons, and surveillance equipment.
  • Remove all weaponry from police and other law enforcement, including tasers, batons, firearms, rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray, and sound canons.
  • End the mass surveillance of our communities through the use of technologies such as stingray, facial recognition, and predictive policing technologies, drones, robots, and G20 surveillance technology that remained in Toronto.

REMOVE COPS IN SCHOOLS
  • Remove police and school resource officers (SROs) in all schools (Public, Catholic, Private, and Post-Secondary) in Toronto.
  • Remove police and school resource officers (SROs) in all schools, at all levels, across Canada.

REDUCE SCOPE OF POLICE
  • End all special constable programs and all policing on campuses.
  • End the policing of public transportation.
  • End the policing of minor bylaw infractions and noise complaints.
  • End paid-duty policing program (officers for hire by developers, street festivals, etc.).
  • End police collaboration with the CBSA.
  • Eliminate all stealth police cars and plainclothes operations.
  • Eliminate community policing patrols in highly racialized communities.
  • End Carding

DOCUMENT POLICE VIOLENCE
  • Mandate the public collection of data regarding police killing, and incidents of police brutality for all local, regional, provincial, and Federal police or law enforcement agency disaggregated by race, gender, age and citizenship.

DECRIMINALIZE POVERTY, DRUGS, HIV & SEX WORK
  • Release and expunge record for all poverty-related charges (including bylaw infractions, solicitation, sleeping outside, public urination, loitering, solicitation).
  • Decriminalize drugs, sex work, and HIV status.
  • Release and expunge records of all drug-related and sex work charges.

CREATE ALTERNATIVES
  • Create Crisis Intervention and Mad co-lead support teams; work with communities to develop models that work for them.
  • Create police-free, community-led, trauma-informed emergency service for mental health/psychiatric distress and other forms of crisis.
  • Invest in community support for shelters, drop-ins, after-school programming in low-income, Black, and Indigenous neighborhoods.
  • Create restorative services, mental health services, and community-run health centres
  • Invest in harm reduction, including safe supply, safe injection/inhalation sites, and harm-reduction outreach workers.
  • Establish a community-based and trauma-informed emergency service for people who have experienced gender-based violence.
  • Implement of civilian transportation safety service and better/safer road infrastructure for pedestrians, cyclists and public transit
  • Create a civilian conflict resolution resolution service to replace policing of minor bylaw infractions/noise complaints
  • Provide permanent, secure housing options for all people who need housing.
https://blacklivesmatter.ca/defund-the-police/

Some of those things we might agree on, others maybe not. But they're asking for a 50% reduction and showing exactly what crime-prevention measures they believe that money should fund.
PepsiFree is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 05:33 PM   #3930
Crown Royal
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog View Post
Agreed, it is tiresome to keep having to explain what the actual stated goals are to people who automatically jump to the conclusion that "defund the police" means people really want to remove every last dollar of funding. Even when you tell them otherwise, they put their fingers in their ears and still pretend it does.

Defund is the wrong word, but it's the word we're stuck with for now.
Except defund isn't the wrong word.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/defund

defund[ dee-fuhnd ]SHOW IPA
verb (used with object)

to withdraw financial support from, especially as an instrument of legislative control:
Many university programs were defunded by the recent government cutbacks.

to deplete the financial resources of:
The cost of the lawsuit defunded the company's operating budget.

See the usage in bold, in neither case does it suggest eliminating funds, defunding is simply decreasing.
Crown Royal is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Crown Royal For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 06:18 PM   #3931
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by combustiblefuel View Post
Verbal explanation of “defund the police” (and tucker Carlson smackdown) at 25:55 of this clip. But I recommend the whole thing.
Scroopy Noopers is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Scroopy Noopers For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 06:19 PM   #3932
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown Royal View Post
Except defund isn't the wrong word.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/defund

defund[ dee-fuhnd ]SHOW IPA
verb (used with object)

to withdraw financial support from, especially as an instrument of legislative control:
Many university programs were defunded by the recent government cutbacks.

to deplete the financial resources of:
The cost of the lawsuit defunded the company's operating budget.

See the usage in bold, in neither case does it suggest eliminating funds, defunding is simply decreasing.
Exactly this (out of thanks). It still applies, it just isn’t the first use that jumps to your brain. English isn’t perfect, no one is arguing that.
Scroopy Noopers is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Scroopy Noopers For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 09:44 PM   #3933
activeStick
Franchise Player
 
activeStick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Toronto
Exp:
Default

https://twitter.com/user/status/1279924766674169858
activeStick is offline  
Old 07-06-2020, 09:48 PM   #3934
MoneyGuy
Franchise Player
 
MoneyGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

My money was on the Washington Orange Skins.
MoneyGuy is offline  
Old 07-07-2020, 12:12 AM   #3935
Crown Royal
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Exp:
Default

That was pretty funny.

My guess is they go with Pigskins. Non-offensive, can keep the same color scheme and secondary nickname, then they can either go without a pronounced logo like the Browns, create a W or DC logo, or simply add an image of a football to their helmets. I'll be shocked if they do a full re-branding.
Crown Royal is offline  
Old 07-07-2020, 12:18 AM   #3936
Locke
Franchise Player
 
Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown Royal View Post
That was pretty funny.

My guess is they go with Pigskins. Non-offensive, can keep the same color scheme and secondary nickname, then they can either go without a pronounced logo like the Browns, create a W or DC logo, or simply add an image of a football to their helmets. I'll be shocked if they do a full re-branding.
Oh...so now they're tossing around the flayed flesh of Police Officers? Thats going a little far dont you think?
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!

This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.

If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
Locke is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Locke For This Useful Post:
Old 07-07-2020, 01:31 AM   #3937
Crown Royal
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
Oh...so now they're tossing around the flayed flesh of Police Officers? Thats going a little far dont you think?
No, not especially. We can use the flesh of their worst offenders.
Crown Royal is offline  
Old 07-07-2020, 09:30 AM   #3938
TorqueDog
Franchise Player
 
TorqueDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary - Centre West
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers View Post
Exactly this (out of thanks). It still applies, it just isn’t the first use that jumps to your brain. English isn’t perfect, no one is arguing that.
That's pretty much why it's the wrong word to use. Not because it doesn't mean what it means, but because if your message is designed for export, you need to make sure as many people as possible understand your message on the first try and that it is exceedingly difficult for bad actors to twist your message into something it's not.

Defund according to Oxford Dictionaries:
Pronunciation /diːˈfʌnd/
VERB
[WITH OBJECT]
US
Prevent from continuing to receive funds.
‘the California Legislature has defunded the Industrial Welfare Commission’
https://www.lexico.com/definition/defund

The above definition will lead most people conclude that defund means turn off funding entirely. Whether you rely on the definition as presented by Merriam-Webster or Oxford or any other source will change how someone interprets the statement. Semantics matter very much in this instance.
__________________
-James
GO
FLAMES GO.
TorqueDog is offline  
Old 07-07-2020, 09:45 AM   #3939
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

I think we can all agree it's not the best word and understand that it does need to be explained and accept that as inevitable. But I also don't think it's unreasonable to question why someone needs it explained to them multiple times.
PepsiFree is offline  
Old 07-07-2020, 09:55 AM   #3940
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
But I also don't think it's unreasonable to question why someone needs it explained to them multiple times.
I think there's a reasonable suspicion that there's a motte and bailey argument happening with respect to the use of that phrase.

I think what's actually happening is that the people who say "defund the police" have wildly varying notions about what doing so would actually entail.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:33 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021