2022: The year the world returns to war?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I can't believe we are this close to the brink.

#### off Putin you authoritarian clown. Hopefully someone close to him in Moscow snaps out of it and assassinates him.

I think if that were ever going to happen it would have happened already.

I'm betting that the people close to him are totally on board to re-unite the Soviet Union.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think if that were ever going to happen it would have happened already.

I'm betting that the people close to him are totally on board to re-unite the Soviet Union.

Tom Cruise didn’t try to kill Hitler until 1944.

Better late than never.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

*starts a new game in CK3 in Kiev*

It's all I can do

It is a really fun starting location!

[bob-loblaw]

If I was living in Russia, and I was reading these reports about Ukraine provoking them, I'd be wondering why on earth would the Ukraine be doing that? Of course it's ludicrous, and no one would seriously believe reports or Putin when it's said.

Putin is just speeding up the end of his era with this stupid move. I wouldn't be surprised if the west isn't hoping he'll attack so they can go after all his and his mafia's hidden assets to destroy his economy and then government. America definitely isn't an angel, but no doubt they want revenge for the Russia backed interference in their domestic affairs.

[JoseCuervo]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

If I was living in Russia, and I was reading these reports about Ukraine provoking them, I'd be wondering why on earth would the Ukraine be doing that? Of course it's ludicrous, and no one would seriously believe reports or Putin when it's said.

Putin is just speeding up the end of his era with this stupid move. I wouldn't be surprised if the west isn't hoping he'll attack so they can go after all his and his mafia's hidden assets to destroy his economy and then government. America definitely isn't an angel, but no doubt they want revenge for the Russia backed interference in their domestic affairs.

The majority of Russian’s don’t support Putin or believe a thing he says. The majority want closer ties to the Europe and the rest of the west, and want to live in peace with personal freedoms. The problem is Putin has enshrined himself so deeply in the control of Russia, there is no real chance of him ever being removed from power.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

If I was living in Russia, and I was reading these reports about Ukraine provoking them, I'd be wondering why on earth would the Ukraine be doing that? Of course it's ludicrous, and no one would seriously believe reports or Putin when it's said.

Putin is just speeding up the end of his era with this stupid move. I wouldn't be surprised if the west isn't hoping he'll attack so they can go after all his and his mafia's hidden assets to destroy his economy and then government. America definitely isn't an angel, but no doubt they want revenge for the Russia backed interference in their domestic affairs.

We have one of the Russian 'news' channels on our digital tv package where we live. The channel (Planeta RTR) is the equivalent of Fox. Daily programs designed for Boomers, old people talking politics on talk panels, state run news, etc. My wife and I have a running joke about "what did Ukraine do today" when she flips it to that channel.

It's hilarious some of the stuff that they say Ukraine does on a daily basis (ex: UA girls went to Dubai and sunbathed topless on a balcony. The horror!). Then you realize that since it's the equivalent of Fox News in the US, this is an example of what people are being fed. One of the talk panels was about how this entire crises was about the US looking to start a 'chip war' with Russia (since that was one of the sanctions talking points). To this panel, that's what this entire crises was about; a f'ing computer chip war.

It's frustrating seeing how Russia is constantly blatantly lying, full of #### and not even trying to hide it. How do you even begin to counter nonsense talking points like that? Always have to remember that Russian media is strictly controlled, far more than Western news.

Look how Fox has warped the minds of millions and how frustrating it is for people with critical thinking skills trying to get through to them. Feels like it's hopeless, right? This is but one of the Russian propaganda channels doing the same thing.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

If I was living in Russia, and I was reading these reports about Ukraine provoking them, I'd be wondering why on earth would the Ukraine be doing that? Of course it's ludicrous, and no one would seriously believe reports or Putin when it's said.

Putin is just speeding up the end of his era with this stupid move. I wouldn't be surprised if the west isn't hoping he'll attack so they can go after all his and his mafia's hidden assets to destroy his economy and then government. America definitely isn't an angel, but no doubt they want revenge for the Russia backed interference in their domestic affairs.

It's not so much about Ukraine per se, let alone Donetsk. Russia feels it needs to pose some kind of tough response to alleged expansion of NATO right to Russia's borders.

The bigger question yet, is why West and Russia are antagonists to begin with. Don't we gain much more from trade and cooperation

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Locke

From the defensive side and using 'General Winter' as their ally.

If they were to pull this stunt, their General would be defecting to the defenders.

Man, this is nuts.

Remember when 2020 was a nightmare? And then 2021 said 'hold my beer?' And now 2022 is really ringing it in with a whole new gear.

The economy crises and particularly stricter borders rather than entangled global market was due to lead to some kind of war trouble. The only question is how far it would go. I hope nothing would actually materialize out if all these war postering

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by JoseCuervo

The majority of Russian’s don’t support Putin or believe a thing he says. The majority want closer ties to the Europe and the rest of the west, and want to live in peace with personal freedoms. The problem is Putin has enshrined himself so deeply in the control of Russia, there is no real chance of him ever being removed from power.

This is true. It's also true however, that there's no real need to remove Putin from power. The current crises stems from NATO trying to get right to Russia's borders by taking in Ukraine. When Russia put missiles to Cuba in 1962, USA went nuts, and deservingly so. This is the same in reverse. Putin is mad the west doesn't honour agreement about not expanding NATO

[Pointman]

This article from Spiegel from 2009 would improve your understanding of the current crises by a lot

https://www.spiegel.de/international...-a-663315.html

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is true. It's also true however, that there's no real need to remove Putin from power. The current crises stems from NATO trying to get right to Russia's borders by taking in Ukraine. When Russia put missiles to Cuba in 1962, USA went nuts, and deservingly so. This is the same in reverse. Putin is mad the west doesn't honour agreement about not expanding NATO

No matter the reason... This isn't going to help his cause.

[Pointman]

This article from Guardian also provides good angle on the situation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ve-nato-russia

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

No matter the reason... This isn't going to help his cause.

I am looking to provide meaningful information - rather than heated debate. Nonetheless, what Putin is doing is not any different than what Kennedy was doing in 1962. By saying that I'm not trying to defend Putin. Rather I'm trying to point out that any leader in his position would likely do the same.

[tony-soprano]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It's not so much about Ukraine per se, let alone Donetsk. Russia feels it needs to pose some kind of tough response to alleged expansion of NATO right to Russia's borders.

The bigger question yet, is why West and Russia are antagonists to begin with. Don't we gain much more from trade and cooperation

Basically the same reason that North Korea exists; buffer zone from the US being right at Chinas borders.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by tony-soprano

Basically the same reason that North Korea exists; buffer zone from the US being right at Chinas borders.

Yes, Ukrainian crisis is largely about buffer zones and US desire to put missiles right on Russian borders. Still, on strategic level, why US, Russia and China are rivals at the first place? Ideology is not really an issue - Russians are actually very similar to Americans in the way they go about their lives. Is it because of perceived danger? Like US is not sure if some kind of lunatic could become Russian leader next, so it's better to put that proverbial gun to Russia's head just in case? Conversely, it is US that has been run by some mindless if not clueless leaders. Is it basically because of severe lack of trust? What are we all afraid of exactly?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is true. It's also true however, that there's no real need to remove Putin from power. The current crises stems from NATO trying to get right to Russia's borders by taking in Ukraine. When Russia put missiles to Cuba in 1962, USA went nuts, and deservingly so. This is the same in reverse. Putin is mad the west doesn't honour agreement about not expanding NATO

Except, Ukraine has desired to be a part of the west and NATO for many years and has not been taken over by a communist despot, aka Cuba and N Korea. They have a legally elected government that has a mandate given by the people for the people. Russia continues to believe that they are the rightful owners to Ukraine.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Except, Ukraine has desired to be a part of the west and NATO for many years and has not been taken over by a communist despot, aka Cuba and N Korea. They have a legally elected government that has a mandate given by the people for the people. Russia continues to believe that they are the rightful owners to Ukraine.

If Ukraine wants to be a part of the West, fair enough. Join EU. Russia would have no problem with that. Joining a military alliance though? The one that has promised not to expand to our borders? The one that has missiles targeted at us? It does make us nervous and it's legit reason. Cuba was also a sovereign country and was legally entitled to host USSR missiles. Yet Kennedy freaked out. And had every right to do so. He also tried to invade Cuba, but failed.


Under Trump, USA had terminated the agreement with Russia about not deploying ground missiles targeting each other. Why? It's not about Russians trying to "own" Ukraine. It's about being, well, uncomfortable about US missiles potentially right at our borders and wanting to show a strong and affirmative response. You have to understand Russia's reasoning here. You don't have to agree with it.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-treaty-russia

[CliffFletcher]

Ukraine isn’t joining NATO.

[ResAlien]

Hopefully this goes better than the illegal annexation of Crimea by the russians. Seems they walked away from that with a slap on the wrist and that’s all.

No need for war but I’m assuming the economic sanctions will hit them harder. They’ve got germany in their pocket what with the ability to shut off Germany’s gas if they upset them but I believe the rest of Europe isn’t quite as beholden to russian whims

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Ukraine isn’t joining NATO.

The lack of trust is so severe, that Putin wants written legally binding guarantees on Ukraine not joining NATO. And he actually did explain that he wants it this way because oral, not clearly formulated promises of 1990 were broken (see Spiegel article above). And the west doesn't want to give him that.