Solar power systems for the home

[gasman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The city has a new calculator:

https://www.calgary.ca/uep/esm/resid...alculator.html

I'm a bit confused though. It says 17 panels is optimal, generating 6245kWh/year. My quick math shows that is about right for generation using factors I've used before, so that's fine.

What I don't understand is the claimed monthly savings is $108. I use ~700kWh per month at a cost of ~$50. They claim I can generate 6245kWh at 6c/kWh divided by 12 months, which gives me ~$31 in electricity savings. How do they get $108?

I don't think that calculator is very good. For one thing, I think it over estimates the install cost, the optimal panels seems to be close what I ended up with, but my system makes 30% more power, which makes sense, because not all panels are created equal - but indicates they are using small panels as their basis (older tech).

On the average monthly savings side, it's anyone's guess - I can't tell if they are calculating off of the RRO option, or taking into account solar club? it seems to be somewhere in between the two.

This was a terrible effort by the city, the solar potential map is cool, and then they mailed it in, in the calculations.

[Hockeyguy15]

Wouldn't you want to redo your shingles before you install panels? I figure it would be a pain if you got them put in place and then 5 years later need to do your roof?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gasman

I don't think that calculator is very good. For one thing, I think it over estimates the install cost, the optimal panels seems to be close what I ended up with, but my system makes 30% more power, which makes sense, because not all panels are created equal - but indicates they are using small panels as their basis (older tech).

On the average monthly savings side, it's anyone's guess - I can't tell if they are calculating off of the RRO option, or taking into account solar club? it seems to be somewhere in between the two.

This was a terrible effort by the city, the solar potential map is cool, and then they mailed it in, in the calculations.

If I use 300W panels I get close to their number, but I also don't have optimal sun so wouldn't get the full capacity.



They must be using the solar club rate, which would get it much closer.

[Calgary14]

Originally Posted by gasman

I don't think that calculator is very good. For one thing, I think it over estimates the install cost, the optimal panels seems to be close what I ended up with, but my system makes 30% more power, which makes sense, because not all panels are created equal - but indicates they are using small panels as their basis (older tech).

On the average monthly savings side, it's anyone's guess - I can't tell if they are calculating off of the RRO option, or taking into account solar club? it seems to be somewhere in between the two.

This was a terrible effort by the city, the solar potential map is cool, and then they mailed it in, in the calculations.

The problem is there are no details on the calculation. They make assumptions but they arent apparent and also as you mentioned the install cost is a wide estimate at best, and I dont think it takes into account the $5k federal grant which would change the payback period

[Flames0910]

City calculator says $17k upfront to save me $120/month on a small-med sized house. Payback is nearly 12 years. Equivalent of taking not even one car off the road. Strangely there is zero difference between the small/medium calculation in my case.

Those are the numbers to buy outright. According to the city, if I lease the system I get an even higher monthly savings than if I purchase outright, for a $27/month positive cashflow. Something funny with the math though because that can't be right, can it? The loan calculation is the worst though -- for $0.00 upfront I can save $29/month and pay off a loan of [terms unknown] in 15 years.

If anything, this calculator turns me off solar but I'm sure administration is patting themselves on the back over this amazing and innovative calculator they released.

With the federal program I was at least interested in getting a quote from an installer because the auditor told me my roof looked like a good candidate. This tells me less than nothing and if anything the half-assed message is "don't bother with solar."

[gasman]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Wouldn't you want to redo your shingles before you install panels? I figure it would be a pain if you got them put in place and then 5 years later need to do your roof?

YYC Solar told me they wouldn't install on shingles more than 10 years old, when I had mine done they were only 3 years old, so, baring an insurance claim for hail, I shouldn't need new shingles for the lifetime of my system.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

City calculator says $17k upfront to save me $120/month on a small-med sized house. Payback is nearly 12 years. Equivalent of taking not even one car off the road. Strangely there is zero difference between the small/medium calculation in my case.

Those are the numbers to buy outright. According to the city, if I lease the system I get an even higher monthly savings than if I purchase outright, for a $27/month positive cashflow. Something funny with the math though because that can't be right, can it? The loan calculation is the worst though -- for $0.00 upfront I can save $29/month and pay off a loan of [terms unknown] in 15 years.

If anything, this calculator turns me off solar but I'm sure administration is patting themselves on the back over this amazing and innovative calculator they released.

With the federal program I was at least interested in getting a quote from an installer because the auditor told me my roof looked like a good candidate. This tells me less than nothing and if anything the half-assed message is "don't bother with solar."

Running the calculator I end up with a system that is 30% smaller than what was installed for 30% more money than it actually cost me. It is not a good tool. I think they could have gotten it much closer in terms of actuals...Lazy effort

[Calgary14]

For solar clubs like green Alberta energy I understand you can switch between the high rate (summer months) of about $0.25 and low rate of about $0.08 in the winter. When comparing to the current rates, my "rate" of electricity is about $0.065. But I know there are like 10 extra variable lines in there so the total "rate" is about $0.12, for me anyway.

My question is with a solar club is the low rate $0.08 simply the initial "rate" with extra variable fees added on, or is that the total rate including all variable fees?

[gasman]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

For solar clubs like green Alberta energy I understand you can switch between the high rate (summer months) of about $0.25 and low rate of about $0.08 in the winter. When comparing to the current rates, my "rate" of electricity is about $0.065. But I know there are like 10 extra variable lines in there so the total "rate" is about $0.12, for me anyway.

My question is with a solar club is the low rate $0.08 simply the initial "rate" with extra variable fees added on, or is that the total rate including all variable fees?

Yes the 0.08 is the energy rate, you would pay the exact same variable rates you would on the other plan, so in the winter (energy importer) your are paying more for energy....but that is pretty much offset by the fact that you will be producing "some" energy.... In my case my worst month was Dec 13 - Jan 13. Where my savings were only $8.60

I am posting my monthly energy savings here.

Google Sheet

[Azure]

Originally Posted by gasman

I received 4 quotes, all were $2-2.20/Watt. Not sure what the install cost is out your way.

The solar club would be the big one. That cuts my payback in half.

The government grant is federal, so it would be available in Manitoba. I believe it is $1000/kW max of $5k

The Manitoba government shut down the rebate program, but it was also priced at $1 per watt, or $1000 per kW.

We were looking at a 200kW system for our business, and the cost would have been around $450k. The government was supposed to rebate us back $200k, and the payback was approximately 10-12 years. Of course if power rates go up, the payback would be quicker.

It was more of a commercial program.

I know a lot of places that went with this program and their payback is around 10 years still (about 3 years into using the panels).

Still have to shell out $200k.

Obviously residential is different.

[Bigtime]

I finally got off my lazy butt and signed up for one of the solar clubs effective last Friday. I really should have done that last year too, paying/paid $0.2585kWh and will switch back to a fixed rate when peak production season is over.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by gasman

Yes the 0.08 is the energy rate, you would pay the exact same variable rates you would on the other plan, so in the winter (energy importer) your are paying more for energy....but that is pretty much offset by the fact that you will be producing "some" energy.... In my case my worst month was Dec 13 - Jan 13. Where my savings were only $8.60

I am posting my monthly energy savings here.

Google Sheet

Google Sheet is updated with April Actuals and May Forecast

In April - Billing Period was March 15 - April 11

Produced 1142kWh
Exported 826 kWh
Imported 356 kWh

My actual bill was -$74 (Bill Credit)

The savings for that period is estimated at $189.95 assuming I was on a 0.059 Energy plan.

Estimated Payback is currently sitting at 14.4 years actual, but that should continue to drop as I get closer to a full year in operation with net metering (October).

[Krovikan]

I'm looking at expanding the solar I have on my roof; however, I contacted Skyfire Energy (they did the original install) and they gave me a quote for $2.778/w, based on discussions here that seem expensive for a new installation, let alone an expansion.

Does anyone have recommendations for companies?

[Ahuch]

Originally Posted by Krovikan

I'm looking at expanding the solar I have on my roof; however, I contacted Skyfire Energy (they did the original install) and they gave me a quote for $2.778/w, based on discussions here that seem expensive for a new installation, let alone an expansion.

Does anyone have recommendations for companies?

Couple things at play here, one being that the cost of solar (well, everything) is going up in the last few months.

Other piece could be that expansion could be more expensive than a new installation, depending on possible infrastructure upgrades, etc, that could be required. Too hard to judge without knowing more.

[Flames_Gimp]

is this financially feesable yet in Canada? i see you can get a grant up to $5000 if you get solar panels. does anyone install some panels and add more as you can afford or do you have to get the full $17,000 package?

[GGG]

Zeno Solar came by with a sales guy today door knocking a quick google says they appear legitimate. There pitch seems to focus on zero down pay forever based on your current utility so I suspect in things like interest rate they make their money.

What are other things to look out for. I am lazy so I am having them do their quote for it but it sounds like then they want to schedule a high pressure sales team to present it.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

Zeno Solar came by with a sales guy today door knocking a quick google says they appear legitimate. There pitch seems to focus on zero down pay forever based on your current utility so I suspect in things like interest rate they make their money.

What are other things to look out for. I am lazy so I am having them do their quote for it but it sounds like then they want to schedule a high pressure sales team to present it.

I don't know anything about them in particular but I have a heuristic that anything sold by high pressure sales staff can be purchased less expensively some other way, without the embedded expense of high pressure sales.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Zeno Solar came by with a sales guy today door knocking a quick google says they appear legitimate. There pitch seems to focus on zero down pay forever based on your current utility so I suspect in things like interest rate they make their money.

What are other things to look out for. I am lazy so I am having them do their quote for it but it sounds like then they want to schedule a high pressure sales team to present it.

Stay away from the high pressure sales guys, I wouldn't trust anyone selling stuff door to door.

YYCSolar
Skyfire

Are both reputable, I have first had experience with YYCSolar

Calgary has approved a PACE loan program where the cost gets amortized and just added to your property tax, so no money up front anyways. That should be rolling out in the fall, I believe.

[Bigtime]

High pressure sales from solar guys, "Hurry! Did you know the sun will burn out? You don't want to miss out on this!"

Another name to check out, we used Eco-Smart Energy Solutions for our array. Had them and Skyfire quote.

[bizaro86]

My biggest concern with getting solar is how the solar club people are staying in business. Because sell at $0.28 in the summer and buy at $0.08 in the winter changes the economics fairly dramatically from sell/buy at $0.065 (or whatever).

How is that sustainable? Where does the money come from to pay out the $0.28? I'm concerned I'll spend 25k on an array and then they'll go out of business/stop offering that deal 6 months later.