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Old 01-19-2022, 06:21 PM   #41
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So he's just targeting that message to subscribers of the National Post? Or the demographic that represents those subscribers?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but if you are saying generally white millennial aged men, then yes.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:23 PM   #42
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Ok as long as we're clear.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:23 PM   #43
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I'm still confused though - is it wrong for that to be his audience?
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:25 PM   #44
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Not at all. It is what it is.
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:28 PM   #45
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I think racism has gotten more complex as society makes more progress on the issue, but unfortunately fewer people want to critically discuss it. Today, it seems like more people are interested in virtue signaling, play the tribalism game, play the cancel culture game, play the "likes" game, try to "win" the "argument," etc.

Issue 1 - As a BIPOC born in Canada, I've seen little racism affect my life trajectory. And increasingly less racism as I've grown older - most of my memories of racism were actually white moms when I was in elementary school. So...progress! And what racism there has been in life, is more than counteracted by other gifts I've been bestowed such as my natural abilities, family upbringing and geographical upbringing. Increasingly, there are more and more BIPOCs like me given a leg up when we don't deserve one. Not all BIPOCs, but increasingly more and more.

Issue 2 - I have seen a lot of BIPOCs whine about racism when they clearly just don't work hard, aren't talented, have a bad attitude and/or have an irritating personality. And honestly, at points in my life, I've done that too. Very easy to throw your hands up in the air and blame racism for not getting a job or a promotion. You know when I started getting the jobs and promotions? When I stopped blaming racism and actually just became a better, more productive person.

But what would have happened if I just threw my hands up, blamed the untrue racism narrative I had constructed in my head and then used that narrative to accept defeat and ignore the role of self-improvement? Wouldn't have been good for me. I bet that happens to a lot of people

Issue 3 - racism still exists. Acutely so for some groups like First Nations in Western Canada and black people in Central and Eastern Canada. Show me a First Nation person anywhere who lives in Western Canada that hasn't been affected by racism. For women of color and white women in some professions too - finance, corporate and law come to mind - discrimination and glass ceilings are real.

Issue 4 - White people - especially first generation immigrants, whites with a blue collar upbringing and whites with a rural upbringing - are also victims of prejudice in white collar professions. I've seen it many times, often perpetrated by my white bosses of more privileged backgrounds. And I see it increasingly so. These white people don't talk the right way. They don't act the right way. They don't dress the right way. So many times, the privileged white guy remains privileged, but we burden the unprivileged white guy to make room for the unprivileged BIPOC. And then everyone calls the unprivileged white guy a redneck, racist, deplorable when he gets upset at the system.

Lots of flaws with the systems of affirmative action policies and I think a lot of the criticism is still warranted. We still have a need for affirmative action policies, but could affirmative action policies be reformed to be more targeted and more fair? Probably. Should they be? Probably
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Old 01-19-2022, 07:42 PM   #46
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I'd highlight some of the fair points and also poor analysis he's made, but alas, CP's almost as bad as reddit these days for these sorts of topics in terms of being an echo chamber. Hack&Lube's post was hardly divisive and fairly broad and generally a fair statement, yet instant attacks on him.

You know if Peterson or anyone remotely "right-wing" is the topic you can be sure it'll just be the usual copypasta army of folks here on the prowl. Serves no one but driving away folks from rational discussions that might be helpful or convincing and instead it'll just be fringes of both sides arguing about extremes and CP will continue to be worse for it.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:23 PM   #47
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I'd highlight some of the fair points and also poor analysis he's made, but alas, CP's almost as bad as reddit these days for these sorts of topics in terms of being an echo chamber. Hack&Lube's post was hardly divisive and fairly broad and generally a fair statement, yet instant attacks on him.



You know if Peterson or anyone remotely "right-wing" is the topic you can be sure it'll just be the usual copypasta army of folks here on the prowl. Serves no one but driving away folks from rational discussions that might be helpful or convincing and instead it'll just be fringes of both sides arguing about extremes and CP will continue to be worse for it.
It's a good thing we have fresh takes like this one complaining about the copy pasta people.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:33 PM   #48
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Personally, I think he has a legitimate point, thrown in with a lot of non-sense and thinly veiled hate. The couple of things that I think are worth debate get lost in everything else and it makes talking about it difficult. You have to spend too much effort teasing out the rotten parts that it isn't even worth it.

I also doubt that simply being a student of his blacklists you. Are there actually occupations where having your degree and curriculum list isn't good enough, but you need to say who the profs were? What industries does this happen in? He is way too self absorbed and thinks he is more relevant than he is.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:37 PM   #49
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I have a colleague who is a big fan of Peterson and went to Peterson's last talk here in town. He often makes jokes about pronouns, identities, and checking his own white privilege . He is also pro guns, is anti-vax, and is anti Trudeau. You know where that is going.

I am very familiar with Peterson from that spectrum of his fandom and gives me pause to cringe.

On the other hand, I am also familiar with Peterson from watching his Channel 4 interview where he rigorously defended himself against a hack journalist. I also watched a lot of his decade old U of T lectures which were captivating to hear regarding his view of structure, history, and values of western civilization. Many write off his self-help material as schlock but I generally agree with a lot of his "clean your room" and "be a man" material. Just getting on with it and not complaining and being responsible and setting an example for others is a message that is forgotten in modern society and I enjoy hearing it.

Peterson is a mixed bag and most recently seems like a broken man. He has a right to point out academic hypocrisy and demand equality vs equity but in my opinion he's going off the deep end from his soap-box diving board because it gives him attention and monetary benefit to appeal to the right-wing shock-jock crowd. He labored under academic salaries for years but he recently gained internet celebrity status and wealth late in life and he obviously likes it.

I will still pay attention when his name comes up because I've like hearing some of the things he has to say when he isn't trying to appeal to the Shapiro and Rogan fanbase or stir up controversy in Canadian politics. I'm a very skeptical person but for some reason I always found a measure of appeal in his self-help material. One of my favorite bands even has him straight-up talking through the back half of one of their songs @ 3:40


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Old 01-19-2022, 08:47 PM   #50
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I think Jordan Peterson was once a very intelligent and rationally debatable person but he has had some mental issues or instabilities and he has gone off the deep end of old-white-man indignation.

He recently gave a talk at Oxford and he looked withered and ragged compared to the last time he was there. He spent the last 1-2 years recovering from a painkiller addiction as he coped with his wife's prognosis. This came after he made most of his second-coming doing lectures about "being a man" and "cleaning up your room" and toughing out addictions, etc.

I do respect some of his ideas and opinions, but now they are so heavily inflected with personal biases and vendettas that every thing has to be taken with a corn of salt.
Hell, at one time even Donald Trump sounded like he had his wits about him.

Things like substance abuse coupled with mentally taxing life events as well as grandiose self-concepts and a decaying mind can send you past the point of no return into crazytown, as demonstrated by a multitude of high profile people that took a...turn in their mature years.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:42 PM   #51
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I also doubt that simply being a student of his blacklists you. Are there actually occupations where having your degree and curriculum list isn't good enough, but you need to say who the profs were? What industries does this happen in? He is way too self absorbed and thinks he is more relevant than he is.
on this specific matter he likely has a point. I'm thinking narrowly here of 'his' grad students- his PhD students and post docs (not simply someone who took one of his classes)- and in academia- yes it absolutely matters who your supervisor is/was. you publish with them, your reference letters come from them, your network within your field goes through them




I would suspect that could be a challenge (not knowing his field specifically)
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:45 PM   #52
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It's odd to me how people can deny the existence of systemic racism, but contemporaneously believe that a hugely effective systemic application of affirmative action is happening.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:54 PM   #53
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I'd highlight some of the fair points and also poor analysis he's made, but alas, CP's almost as bad as reddit these days for these sorts of topics in terms of being an echo chamber. Hack&Lube's post was hardly divisive and fairly broad and generally a fair statement, yet instant attacks on him.

You know if Peterson or anyone remotely "right-wing" is the topic you can be sure it'll just be the usual copypasta army of folks here on the prowl. Serves no one but driving away folks from rational discussions that might be helpful or convincing and instead it'll just be fringes of both sides arguing about extremes and CP will continue to be worse for it.
Who attacked h&l?

Many of us have derided Peterson for his hypocritical persecution complex...

Anti-woke folk seem awfully sensitive sometimes.
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:06 PM   #54
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Who attacked h&l?

Many of us have derided Peterson for his hypocritical persecution complex...

Anti-woke folk seem awfully sensitive sometimes.
The last sentence of your post is the dumbest and most ignorant thing I have read In a while , and that’s saying something reading the extreme left and right wing comments that almost every rational exchange of ideas or debates always degrades too

Anti-woke … seriously ? Does that cliche actually play?
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:09 PM   #55
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The last sentence of your post is the dumbest and most ignorant thing I have read In a while , and that’s saying something reading the extreme left and right wing comments that almost every rational exchange of ideas or debates always degrades too
Did I need to put up a trigger warning?

What's wrong with being sensitive?
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:11 PM   #56
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Did I need to put up a trigger warning?

What's wrong with being sensitive?
Ahh using triggered now ! Must have the “woke” word a day calendar
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:28 PM   #57
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Are you trying to prove my point for me?

Is anti-woke an inappropriate way to characterize people who seem highly skeptical of the woke movement?

I used the word sensitive (as a euphmism for thin-skinned)...which somehow lead you to 'dumbest' and 'most ignorant'.

Might be time for a look in the mirror, bud...clean up that room of yours before getting hot and bothered with me...
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:39 PM   #58
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Peterson is a really interesting professor - I’ve really enjoyed his Biblical lectures, his child development stuff, and his analysis of old myths and Disney movies.

He’s incredibly cringe when talking to Rubin or Shapiro or Rogan, but who isn’t.

Even the most famous and beloved figures only have a small amount to say that’s actually worth paying attention to - Peterson is no different.

I wish more of us could acknowledge that we are all of us, a little bit full of #### in our own ways. There are problematic (I hate the way the usage of that word has evolved) manifestations of that, but we are creatures that are frequently wrong about most of the things in our lives most of the time.
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Old 01-19-2022, 11:32 PM   #59
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on this specific matter he likely has a point. I'm thinking narrowly here of 'his' grad students- his PhD students and post docs (not simply someone who took one of his classes)- and in academia- yes it absolutely matters who your supervisor is/was. you publish with them, your reference letters come from them, your network within your field goes through them




I would suspect that could be a challenge (not knowing his field specifically)
Ah, I see. I didn't think about that.

I was actually fortunate enough to work a summer with a professor doing research, not as a grad student, but just for work experience. It was understood at the beginning that he owned all the data I collected and owned the research, but when he published his paper, he graciously (and to my surprise) added my name to the credits. I didn't expect it or think I was really worthy of it, but it actually did help me later in life being able to put that on my CV and his name was known in the industry, so I see what you mean.
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Old 01-20-2022, 12:34 AM   #60
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Interesting. I wonder if Peterson would be willing to go to a poverty-stricken ghetto, LGBTQ2S+ community or First Nations territory and give them that same advice in person.

Unless he of course was just speaking about people with the privilege and ability to pull themselves up?
I actually think that advice is somewhat universal for anyone. I don't think he proclaims that going about things that way is going to magically remove very real external barriers, just only that sorting yourself out and focusing on improving what you have control over first will result in better outcomes than not doing so. Simply that, nothing more.
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