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Old 09-21-2020, 10:16 AM   #21
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It’s a myth, buddy.

Sorta how Sesame Street isn’t really about a giant hairy elephant residing in an urban environment, the story of Adam and Eve is not about a magical, wish-granting genie creating the first two humans.

That may be what happens in the story, but it isn’t what it’s about.
Exactly. The lesson is that women are sub-human trash but it's their own damn fault.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:44 AM   #22
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It’s a myth, buddy.

Sorta how Sesame Street isn’t really about a giant hairy elephant residing in an urban environment, the story of Adam and Eve is not about a magical, wish-granting genie creating the first two humans.

That may be what happens in the story, but it isn’t what it’s about.
You mean Snuffy ain’t real?!
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:54 AM   #23
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They did make Snuffy 'real' though in the context of Sesame Street . The idea behind it was that having an imaginary creature that the grown-ups couldn't see or believe in would teach children not to tell their parents about things (sexual molestation etc.) for fear they wouldn't be believed.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:12 AM   #24
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...and on the 8th day, God came down off his acid trip and realized that not only did he not spend the last week creating an entire universe, his real name is Dave and all the walls around him have a remarkably rubber texture for some reason.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:23 AM   #25
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...and on the 8th day, God came down off his acid trip and realized that not only did he not spend the last week creating an entire universe, his real name is Dave and all the walls around him have a remarkably rubber texture for some reason.
Wrong, this story was written 2000+ years before rubber OR LSD existed. So... it was more likely Dave came down off an a kykeon high and found himself bouncing off of decidedly less comfortable stone walls.

But the likelihood of this being a more accurate origin story is true.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:28 AM   #26
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Exactly. The lesson is that women are sub-human trash but it's their own damn fault.
That’s certainly one way you could interpret it. Though it’s not like Adam comes off any better in the story - as soon as God asks him if he ate the apple, he sells out his wife. He comes off as quite pathetic.

The moral of the story is, ultimately, that life isn’t a walled garden where you can fritter your days away naked without a care in the world. Life is dangerous and complicated in ways you can’t begin to comprehend, and it will get you if you don’t keep your eyes open and pay attention.

There’s a cost to paying attention too, of course; you’re no longer ensconced in blissful ignorance, you can’t pretend the world is harmless and there exclusively for your personal pleasure, you have to get up in the morning and go to work.

It sucks. And yet, it’s life.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:30 AM   #27
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That’s certainly one way you could interpret it.
Which the Catholic Church does. That's why women can't be priests, they done ####ed up when Eve grabbed that fruit.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:38 AM   #28
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Which the Catholic Church does. That's why women can't be priests, they done ####ed up when Eve grabbed that fruit.
If you’re asking me to defend the actions of a millennias-old institution that at one point governed most of Europe, I can’t, and I have no interest in doing so.

I’m only saying that religious (and mythological) stories contain a plethora of extremely useful, actionable wisdom about the human experience that remains true across vast stretches of time, and that we shouldn’t just dismiss them because they’re empirically correct in the way that modern humans view the world.

We’re leaving money on the table when we do that.

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Old 09-21-2020, 11:42 AM   #29
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But that was what powderjunkie was getting at; the Catholic Church's interpretation. He was being facetious with calling women sub-human trash.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:50 AM   #30
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But that was what powderjunkie was getting at; the Catholic Church's interpretation. He was being facetious with calling women sub-human trash.
So it might be good to push back against the Catholic Church’s interpretation with theological arguments instead of atheistic ones.
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:03 PM   #31
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They did make Snuffy 'real' though in the context of Sesame Street . The idea behind it was that having an imaginary creature that the grown-ups couldn't see or believe in would teach children not to tell their parents about things (sexual molestation etc.) for fear they wouldn't be believed.


I never made that connection until now, I don't think I even remember that Snuffy was never around when the adults showed up.
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:40 PM   #32
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This pope has been a good dude for a while and even outsiders have seen him as being more progressive. But the Catholic church is most definitely not moving in the right direction as a whole. Not as long as sexual allegations of child rape keep happening and they simply shuffle the deck chairs to hide it. Not as long as a bunch of old men refuse to let a fellow human become a priest simply because they have a vagina between their legs. Not as long as sex is continued to be viewed as improper unless you are married. Not as long as you can only receive certain sacraments from the church because you had water poured on your head as a baby. Don't even get started on their stance on gay marriage, LGBTQ rights, birth control, abortions, etc. The list goes on and on. Not even a progressive pope like this one can fix those things as long as the long list of ideologies continues to be pushed by the clergy.

It has maintained control over it's followers for centuries and will continue to do the same for centuries more because "God" and the control they enjoy over their followers. I say this as someone who grew up going to Catholic church/school and still have many Catholic family members and friends; the Catholic church is by far the most corrupt entity in the history of humanity.
Whoa now....hey, I think you're seriously under-estimating the 'Church' of Scientology.

Now they dont have the same length in terms of track record, but in modern history they're giving Rome a run for their money.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:20 PM   #33
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I never made that connection until now, I don't think I even remember that Snuffy was never around when the adults showed up.
It was changed in 1985 after 14 years (Snuffy introduced in 1971).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...sis-180957351/
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But the producers realized this storyline needed to change in the early 1980s when an alarming issue started hitting the news. A 60 Minutes series on child abuse made the show runners think that it wouldn’t be a good idea to continue a storyline where one of their main child-like characters wasn’t believed by grownups. Executive Producer Carol-Lynn Parente says:

"The fear was that if we represented adults not believing what kids said, they might not be motivated to tell the truth. That caused us to rethink the storyline: Is something we’ve been doing for 14 years—that seemed innocent enough—now something that’s become harmful?"

But sorry to derail the thread about children molestations. Let's go back to the Catholic Church and...oh.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:42 PM   #34
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The saddest and craziest relationship I've ever seen from devout catholics was a driver from work. He seemed troubled a lot, and eventually he mentioned his family. He came out as gay and his dad who had loved him until that point said he was going to hell and wouldn't talk to him anymore until he "changed".

After a few years of no contact his dad started to pass away from cancer, so he showed up to say goodbye to his father that loved him his whole life until he came out and his father looked at him and said "I think you need to leave", so he walked away from his dad who had weeks to live and that was it.

I can't believe what religion can do to some people, it's crazy.
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:08 PM   #35
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Exactly. The lesson is that women are sub-human trash but it's their own damn fault.
Well, no. That is not the message.
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That’s certainly one way you could interpret it. Though it’s not like Adam comes off any better in the story - as soon as God asks him if he ate the apple, he sells out his wife. He comes off as quite pathetic.

The moral of the story is, ultimately, that life isn’t a walled garden where you can fritter your days away naked without a care in the world. Life is dangerous and complicated in ways you can’t begin to comprehend, and it will get you if you don’t keep your eyes open and pay attention.
That is not really it either, although this reading is certainly more thoughtful and creative. In the first place, there was no "apple" in the story; it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and missing this detail really misses a substantial chunk of what this story is actually about. Moreover, Adam and Eve were never "frittering their days away naked without a care in the world." In Gen 2:15 the man is explicitly charged with "serving and keeping" the Garden that God had planted. In other words, Adam and Eve had vocations—they were set in the Garden with a purpose: to look after it, and to protect it. Also, the couple's nakedness is significant, but not as a demonstration of their complacency or ignorance, but rather as an indication that they were on some level divine. The serpent-creature also is divine, being "more clever (or naked) than all the animals" in the Garden (הָיָה עָרוּם מִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה; Gen 3:1) This aspect of the story is more clearly obvious when it is compared to the story of Enkidu and Gilgamesh. And I don't get what "paying attention" has anything at all to do with the story. While there is certainly a mortal change that occurs as a result of eating the fruit, and having their "eyes opened," this has to do with the acquisition of knowledge, insight and sexuality.

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There’s a cost to paying attention too, of course; you’re no longer ensconced in blissful ignorance, you can’t pretend the world is harmless and there exclusively for your personal pleasure, you have to get up in the morning and go to work.

It sucks. And yet, it’s life.

Except that the Garden was never intended for Adam and Eve's personal pleasure. If anything Eden is God's garden, and Adam, Eve and the domesticated animals are there solely for the purpose of keeping and maintaining it. The garden itself is an urban landscape, more comparable to the fabled Hanging Gardens of Babylon, and within the story it is also an analogue for the Temple in Jerusalem—the message here is one of servitude in keeping God's house. Ultimately, it is a story of rebellion and ambition, and the grave consequences for pursuing outside one's divinely mandated station. It is a story of sexuality, and the complicated and mysterious roles for men and women in a gendered society.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:25 PM   #36
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So God made Adam and Eve to be eternal slaves? That's pretty dark.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:33 PM   #37
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So God made Adam and Eve to be eternal slaves? That's pretty dark.
Another alternative is that if they weren't immortal, God may have created more keepers of his garden when Adam and Eve werent of any use to him.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:38 PM   #38
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Another alternative is that if they weren't immortal, God may have created more keepers of his garden when Adam and Eve werent of any use to him.
Not really. It's a story, so unless you are creating fan fiction then none of this is relevant.

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Old 09-21-2020, 06:40 PM   #39
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So God made Adam and Eve to be eternal slaves? That's pretty dark.
From our perspective, certainly. But this is what the ancients thought of divine beings. They were capricious and cruel; because they were so powerful and people all felt so vulnerable and incapable of their own self-determination it made good sense to view gods in this way.

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Old 09-21-2020, 06:57 PM   #40
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They were capricious and cruel;
Which makes sense why Egyptians saw cats as gods.
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