Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by wired

The Flames will be moving in the 2019/2020 season if a new arena does not get built.
My opinion.

Nope

[Mr.Coffee]

It’s actually pretty startling how much the public perception of the Flames in Calgary has fallen.

Think back 1, 2 and then 5 years. What a precipitous decline in fan sentiment in this city for this franchise, and there are lots of good reasons for it. I can’t imagine a visit from the head of the NHL, who’s job is exclusively to supplement ownerships position, is going to help. I just don’t see Bettman reading the tea leaves right here and I suspect tomorrow will be just another frustrating day for fans, over an extensive period of frustrating times.

Look at the contrast to Winnipeg, when they got their team back. The excitement and buzz and instant love affair that city embraced that team with. What about Vegas, wow. And now today Seattle- selling 25,000 season tickets in a couple hours, in a city people weren’t even sure would work for NHL hockey for a long time.

Maybe Calgary fans are spoiled. I know I am (see the bottom of this post). But are we really all that unreasonable? We have had NHL hockey for 37 years after all. Not much success, but some good times and something to follow in pro sports for all of my life at least. Maybe the NHL has handled this delicate situation with the grace of an earthquake. Who knows what the problem is but I really don’t think taking tone deaf Bettman and putting him in front of pissed off fans is a good solution or will help anything. He was so irritating to listen to during the All star game intermission, really came across quite poorly.

Has Bettman or the ownership groups ever looked in the mirror and decided to change strategies or admit what they’re doing isn’t working? What a bizarre clusterfata this is. I honestly would have never predicted this.

Here’s an idea, hire marketing people, or replace the existing ones. The existing group has to be some of the worst in the NHL. From building unveiling, in-game experience, jerseys and marketing themes / presentation, like Jesus Christ. Get it together. Give the fans SOMETHING.

[monkeyman]

I think public perception was set by Hotchkiss, when he died, a lot of what was good about the Flames died too.
I agree, they need a change in marketing, but I think the changes need to go much higher.

[RM14]

And please someone tell Harvey to beat the drum with a proper 1-2-3 in a proper slow go flames go chant. These days he bangs it too fast and asks the crowd to go.

[4X4]

It amazes me that after years feet dragging and empty promises of an imminent arena proposal, they finally come out with an ultra expensive idea, illustrated by a 10 year old, in the middle of a brutal economic downturn, in an area that makes no sense to the proper development of the city, and then get all upset that taxpayers didn't jump for joy. And now it's like this? F-U Calgary?

What exactly do the Flames think that Calgarians owe them? Are we not the ones buying the tickets and the merchandise that make them a viable business? We give to them, and they give back to us, in many ways that we truly appreciate, or else support would have dried up long ago. It's pretty symbiotic. And that's exactly what Calgarians are digging in their heels to hammer out in an arena deal. But now the Flames are taking their ball and Bettman is alluding to them going elsewhere?

This is like a long, successful marriage that falls to pieces because one party stops participating. Newsflash, Flames... The current building is still full, and people are still buying your gear, even though you're mediocre at best, and you completely crapped the bed on the arena you started talking about well over a decade ago. It's not Calgarians that turned their back, but go ahead and blame it on us. It's all our fault you sat on your hands for 10 fricken years and then proposed the most expensive arena ever, to a city that was (and still is) getting slaughtered by a bad economy. Yep, it's the fans' fault. Calgary's fault. Nenshi's fault. Ok then.

[Mr.Coffee]

Much better said than I but that’s exactly why Bettman coming into town to (I’m certain) lecture fans about how they need to bend over and take it is going to go as well as a lead balloon taking flight. Just tone deaf arrogant baloney.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Much better said than I but that’s exactly why Bettman coming into town to (I’m certain) lecture fans about how they need to bend over and take it is going to go as well as a lead balloon taking flight. Just tone deaf arrogant baloney.

And the fact that he keeps using Edmonton as an example is so irritating. I'm not even going to make a bad joke about Edmontonians being stupid, because they're not, and it's not the point, but when they made that deal, they got money from the province as well as the city, and the world was a different place. The Flames could have caught that wave, but they stood still and waited for a better one, but that did not come. And now the Flames are pretty much blaming it on Calgarians.

The new arena has been a topic since the Flames went to the SCF in 2004. They finally "presented" their "knock your socks off" idea in 2014. But now it's our fault that we play in the oldest building in the league. Yeah.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by getbak

Yes. I'll be going.

Ask him why, when the City has left the invite back to negotiating table wide open, and has said they’d discuss any and all new ideas for funding, the Flames are not at the table? The election is over, there is a new Council. Get on with it.

[Poster]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Ask him why, when the City has left the invite back to negotiating table wide open, and has said they’d discuss any and all new ideas for funding, the Flames are not at the table? The election is over, there is a new Council. Get on with it.

Bettman said in his Edmonton appearance that the Flames are no longer pursuing an arena in Calgary. I would suggest that’s why they aren’t coming to the table.

It’s clearly no longer a priority for them! Lol.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by wired

The Flames will be moving in the 2019/2020 season if a new arena does not get built.
My opinion.

disagree. I would opine that for hockey at least you can get 10 more years out of the saddledome. wouldn't be able to maximize your profit, but it would be an acceptable hockey venue for that long.

flames are going nowhere. after seattle gets their team, what's left in the west? Houston?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by 4X4

And the fact that he keeps using Edmonton as an example is so irritating. I'm not even going to make a bad joke about Edmontonians being stupid, because they're not, and it's not the point, but when they made that deal, they got money from the province as well as the city, and the world was a different place. The Flames could have caught that wave, but they stood still and waited for a better one, but that did not come. And now the Flames are pretty much blaming it on Calgarians.

The new arena has been a topic since the Flames went to the SCF in 2004. They finally "presented" their "knock your socks off" idea in 2014. But now it's our fault that we play in the oldest building in the league. Yeah.

good comments other than the fact the there was no provincial money given to the oilers to build their rink. the city may have redirected provincial funds for it, but that's not the same as the province giving them arena money.

[wired]

Originally Posted by 4X4

And the fact that he keeps using Edmonton as an example is so irritating. I'm not even going to make a bad joke about Edmontonians being stupid, because they're not, and it's not the point, but when they made that deal, they got money from the province as well as the city, and the world was a different place. The Flames could have caught that wave, but they stood still and waited for a better one, but that did not come. And now the Flames are pretty much blaming it on Calgarians.

The new arena has been a topic since the Flames went to the SCF in 2004. They finally "presented" their "knock your socks off" idea in 2014. But now it's our fault that we play in the oldest building in the league. Yeah.

I am not, nor will I ever be a fan of the Oilers. I have zero desire to attempt to go to the arena smack dab in the middle of downtown Edmonton.
The arena deal was sealed well before I moved here, and I have the privilege of paying part of the tab with my tax dollars.

[rage2]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

disagree. I would opine that for hockey at least you can get 10 more years out of the saddledome. wouldn't be able to maximize your profit, but it would be an acceptable hockey venue for that long.

Maybe if the salary cap doesn't keep going up like it does every year. As reference, the cap went up $25M USD in the last 10 years. I guess the Flames doesn't have to spend to the cap. That would be exciting.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

flames are going nowhere. after seattle gets their team, what's left in the west? Houston?

Don't discount Houston - top 5 market in the US; natural rival for the Stars; ready building; reasonable hockey history; oh, and a loaded prospective owner.

The Flames NHL franchise is worth what? $200 mil. He could have the whole thing for 30% less than VGK paid. (franchise, moving fee, etc.)

I think what makes one skeptical about the threat to move is all the other businesses entwined in the Flames corp. Only the NHL franchise would be moving. What happens with the Hitmen, Roughnecks, & Infreno (who all play out of the Saddledome) and the Stamps? How does the ownership group walk away from all that? sell it off by the piece? Fold it up? (a ruthless businessman would barrow against each franchise then bankrupt them).

Is revenue sharing the only sticking point? If the city pays half they want half the revenue until they recoup their investment? do I have that right?

[Monahammer]

I agree with the above comments on the marketing team- I find the social media team particularly grating/ lacking. I have a deep seated suspicion that this is all set by king and that's why it's so bloody terrible.

At this point if the team doesn't want to play nice on an arena I say good riddance. I'm pretty tired of greedy owners and an organization that his it's fingers firmly planted in its ears. The business case for a team here is strong, if this one leaves another won't be far behind. With the quality of expansion teams it might end up being a positive for us fans, might finally get to see some winning!

[The Fisher Account]

A lot of people actually surprised they didn't see Murray Edwards, Ken King and the rest of CSEC on this list?

I know they're not the brightest group, but individual donations were likely discussed internally and I'm sure it was agreed that that would not look good on the organization. I'm sure with enough digging, you can find a lot of proxy donations (family, friends, etc) on top of the Saddledome ads

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Don't discount Houston - top 5 market in the US; natural rival for the Stars; ready building; reasonable hockey history; oh, and a loaded prospective owner.

The Flames NHL franchise is worth what? $200 mil. He could have the whole thing for 30% less than VGK paid. (franchise, moving fee, etc.)

Flames value is $430 million US according to Forbes. Would then have to pay the $200 million plus moving fee to the gang of thieves that own the NHL. Not much of a discount really, if any.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

disagree. I would opine that for hockey at least you can get 10 more years out of the saddledome. wouldn't be able to maximize your profit, but it would be an acceptable hockey venue for that long.

flames are going nowhere. after seattle gets their team, what's left in the west? Houston?

That's pretty much the timeline I'm thinking is going to play out. Another decade of the province being economically shut out by the rest of the country by indifferent/hostile neighboring governments coupled with the renewal of national TV deals at the tail end of that timeframe sets up the pieces to facilitate a move to Houston - or any other moderately-sized city that makes itself available within the span of ten years. Houston became a relocation candidate literally overnight and caught everybody by surprise in becoming so, so why couldn't Portland or KC or any other similarly-sized city in the west do the same in that frame of time? There's plenty of relocation options that could present themselves.

[Lil Pedro]

Why would the potential Houston owner pay top market value for the Flames franchise, when he could easily buy the Coyotes for half that cost in 2-5 years when their arena deal in that city falls thru? Makes zero sense to me. The NHL and the Flames can threaten all they want but they aren't moving. The franchise (much like the majority of Canadian franchises) are too vital to the longevity of the NHL. Frankly, the idea of the Flames moving to another market falls on deaf ears.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Don't discount Houston - top 5 market in the US; natural rival for the Stars; ready building; reasonable hockey history; oh, and a loaded prospective owner.

The Flames NHL franchise is worth what? $200 mil. He could have the whole thing for 30% less than VGK paid. (franchise, moving fee, etc.)

I think what makes one skeptical about the threat to move is all the other businesses entwined in the Flames corp. Only the NHL franchise would be moving. What happens with the Hitmen, Roughnecks, & Infreno (who all play out of the Saddledome) and the Stamps? How does the ownership group walk away from all that? sell it off by the piece? Fold it up? (a ruthless businessman would barrow against each franchise then bankrupt them).

Is revenue sharing the only sticking point? If the city pays half they want half the revenue until they recoup their investment? do I have that right?

according to a Forbes article in December 2017, the flames were actually worth 430 million. just a tad more than 200. so If someone wanted the flames, I would guess they'd be paying at least 500million.