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Old 11-14-2021, 11:43 AM   #141
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US allows guns, politicians bought and paid for by lobbiests since the country was formed. You can't use he was a threat because he was carrying a gun or what was he doing there. That's his right. The gun is pretty much an extention of his arm.
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:44 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by 81MC View Post
If you run down the street to get away and I pursue you, catching up to you in an alley, damn right your actions are self defence. Otherwise, what protection is afforded to someone who is being attacked?
If I'm jogging down the street and people start chasing me, that makes sense to be self-defence.

If I arm myself up and go to confront a bunch of people and then run away, it's a different situation.

And if it's not, it's the law that is messed up.
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:47 AM   #143
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If you run down the street to get away and I pursue you, catching up to you in an alley, damn right your actions are self defence. Otherwise, what protection is afforded to someone who is being attacked?
Should there not be a provision for 'reasonable force?'

Lets assume for a moment that he was pursued and 'attacked.' One guy had a plastic bag, another guy had a skateboard.

It stands to reason that their ability to inflict lethal harm upon was limited at best. Certainly not so much as someone with a rifle.

Further, they are likely reacting in fear to someone wandering around with a gun. Now in the dark and the heat of the moment, that looks like an assault rifle. To someone not well versed in guns, it looks like something a soldier would carry.

So yeah, that gun probably scared the ever-loving #### out of them and they reacted out of fear. Fear that he instilled. On purpose.

Remove the AR15 from that night and nobody ever hears the name of Kyle Rittenhouse.
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:52 AM   #144
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Once Rittenhouse is acquitted, it will be fascinating watching him become a Trumpist hero, trotted out at the GOP rallies, etc etc.

I also can only imagine the numbers of arms at future protests and counter-protests in the US. They're going to put Hezbollah rallies in Beirut to shame.
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:57 AM   #145
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Should there not be a provision for 'reasonable force?'

Lets assume for a moment that he was pursued and 'attacked.' One guy had a plastic bag, another guy had a skateboard.

It stands to reason that their ability to inflict lethal harm upon was limited at best. Certainly not so much as someone with a rifle.

Further, they are likely reacting in fear to someone wandering around with a gun. Now in the dark and the heat of the moment, that looks like an assault rifle. To someone not well versed in guns, it looks like something a soldier would carry.

So yeah, that gun probably scared the ever-loving #### out of them and they reacted out of fear. Fear that he instilled. On purpose.

Remove the AR15 from that night and nobody ever hears the name of Kyle Rittenhouse.

I think we as Canadians would be scared and find that alarming but not in the US.

As others have said here, there were many others that night who saw Rittenhouse and ignored him and there were people other than Rittenhouse also carrying rifles.


And the weapons don't matter. If I, a 100 pound girl, attacks a 200 pound guy, with my bare hands and he stabs me with a knife, that's self-defense. You can't say that I was no threat to him because I was half his size and had no weapons.
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:59 AM   #146
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Are they permitting the jury to levy a lesser conviction?

My mind is bending over backwards trying to find a way that a person showing up to a riot with a gun, when they weren't required or qualified to be there, that ends up killing 2 people and wounding 1 isn't somehow responsible for that situation at all.

Rittenhouse's choices are the reason we are even talking about this today. I know it's not that simple, but that single choice should have some sort of consequence relating to the deaths and not just weapons charges.
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Old 11-14-2021, 12:37 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Locke View Post
Should there not be a provision for 'reasonable force?'

Lets assume for a moment that he was pursued and 'attacked.' One guy had a plastic bag, another guy had a skateboard.

It stands to reason that their ability to inflict lethal harm upon was limited at best. Certainly not so much as someone with a rifle.

Further, they are likely reacting in fear to someone wandering around with a gun. Now in the dark and the heat of the moment, that looks like an assault rifle. To someone not well versed in guns, it looks like something a soldier would carry.

So yeah, that gun probably scared the ever-loving #### out of them and they reacted out of fear. Fear that he instilled. On purpose.

Remove the AR15 from that night and nobody ever hears the name of Kyle Rittenhouse.
I don't know if you can call it fear. Both Rosenbaum and Huber have a history that suggests they have extremely poor impulse control and are very quick to violence.

Joseph Rosenbaum:

Quote:

Rosenbaum also had open misdemeanor cases for battery (domestic abuse) and disorderly conduct (domestic abuse).

Newly released documents obtained by Wisconsin Right Now from the Pima County (Arizona) Clerk of Courts confirm Rosenbaum was charged by a grand jury with 11 counts of child molestation and inappropriate sexual activity with children, including anal rape. The victims were five boys ranging in age from nine to 11 years old. He was convicted of two amended counts as part of a plea deal.
While in jail, for what are hardcore acts of rape of children, Rosenbaum was cited multiple times with attacking staff.

Anthony Huber:

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Huber had a disorderly conduct conviction from 2018 as a domestic abuse repeater, which is a misdemeanor. He gave a Kenosha address. Here are the charges in that case.

940.19(1) Battery Misd. A Dismissed on Prosecutorís Motion
Modifier: 939.62(1)(a) Repeater
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
2 947.01(1) Disorderly Conduct Misd. B Guilty Due to Guilty Plea
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.62(1)(a) Repeater
He also had a forfeiture case for possessing drug paraphernalia.
He also had a case from 2012 with these charges:

1 941.30(2) 2nd-Degree Recklessly Endangering Safety Felony G Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 939.63(1)(c) Use of a Dangerous Weapon
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse

2 940.235(1) Strangulation and Suffocation Felony H Guilty Due to Guilty Plea
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse

3 940.30 False Imprisonment Felony H Guilty Due to Guilty Plea
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.63(1)(b) Use of a Dangerous Weapon
4 940.19(1) Battery Misd. A Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.63(1)(a) Use of a Dangerous Weapon

5 947.01(1) Disorderly Conduct Misd. B Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.63(1)(a) Use of a Dangerous Weapon

6 947.01(1) Disorderly Conduct Misd. B Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse

https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/20...osha-shooting/


You've got a pretty extreme powder keg there. A dip#### teenager who's recently gotten into the ideology of the proud boys.

He's then confronted by a group of people with their own history of extreme violence and poor impulse control.

Then you've got the gun laws that allow teenagers to walk around with assault riffles, and a police force who's essentially deputized them.
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:23 PM   #148
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Not getting involved at all is the general point.
There had been widespread looting and arson the previous two nights that the police were unable to prevent. Lots of people were standing on front of their property with guns in Kenosha that night. White and Black.

Quote:
Rittenhouse was one of many who were armed on Tuesday night in downtown Kenosha.

Wisconsin is an open-carry state, meaning anyone over 18 who can purchase a handgun or rifle can carry it in the open without a permit. In the streets around the Civic Center Park, where protests have begun every night since Jacob Blake was shot on Aug. 23, some residents were seen sitting on their front steps with firearms.

ďIím not part of any group,Ē said Ronald Grover, 32, as he stood Tuesday in front of the entranceway of his apartment building two blocks south of the central square. In addition to a long-arm rifle, Grover wore a bulletproof vest. Several of Groverís other neighbors, some of them white and some Black, also held weapons as they sat on their front porches.

ďI live here in this building and am protecting myself,Ē Grover said.

https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/milwauk...-of-a-militia-
Thatís certainly not illegal in Wisconsin. So I guess the question is who else is allowed to carry firearms with the aim of protecting property. Neighbours? Friends? Volunteers from out of town? Politically motivated vigilantes? And how should the law distinguish between these people?
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:42 PM   #149
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There had been widespread looting and arson the previous two nights that the police were unable to prevent. Lots of people were standing on front of their property with guns in Kenosha that night. White and Black.



Thatís certainly not illegal in Wisconsin. So I guess the question is who else is allowed to carry firearms with the aim of protecting property. Neighbours? Friends? Volunteers from out of town? Politically motivated vigilantes? And how should the law distinguish between these people?
Well apparently they sat on their porches defending their property as opposed to wading through the crowd looking for trouble.

I think thats more in the spirit of 'defending.'
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:59 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by AltaGuy View Post
Once Rittenhouse is acquitted, it will be fascinating watching him become a Trumpist hero, trotted out at the GOP rallies, etc etc.

I also can only imagine the numbers of arms at future protests and counter-protests in the US. They're going to put Hezbollah rallies in Beirut to shame.
Would any of us be surprised to see him run for office in the next few years?

He's basically going to have to embrace this as his identity now, so either right wing politics or a tell all book seem likely to be in his future.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:11 PM   #151
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Once Rittenhouse is acquitted, it will be fascinating watching him become a Trumpist hero, trotted out at the GOP rallies, etc etc.

I also can only imagine the numbers of arms at future protests and counter-protests in the US. They're going to put Hezbollah rallies in Beirut to shame.
It will be interesting to see him sue Biden and other news organizations like Sandmann did. Biden, running as President, smearing a 17 year old kid as a white supremacist was fairly repugnant.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:24 PM   #152
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It will be interesting to see him sue Biden and other news organizations like Sandmann did. Biden, running as President, smearing a 17 year old kid as a white supremacist was fairly repugnant.
If hanging out with white supremacists and making white supremacist hand gestures doesn’t make him a white supremacist, then what does?
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:25 PM   #153
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Seems quite likely he'll be found not guilty for self defense reasons. Based on existing laws and rules that makes sense.

There is the question on self defense laws themselves and how they apply in situations like this. Basically he's out there armed and taking the law into his own hand. The thing he's supposedly protecting has no link to him. If he's not armed to the hilt does any of this happen? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/u...e=articleShare
That's the thing about guns. They are often the catalyst that turns a volatile situation into an explosive situation. No doubt carrying an AR15 made Rittenhouse feel 10 feet taller and invincible.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:27 PM   #154
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If hanging out with white supremacists and making white supremacist hand gestures doesnít make him a white supremacist, then what does?
Living in Cape Breton?
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:33 PM   #155
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That's the thing about guns. They are often the catalyst that turns a volatile situation into an explosive situation. No doubt carrying an AR15 made Rittenhouse feel 10 feet taller and invincible.
What about Grosskreutz? Haven't seen much criticism of a guy who showed up to a riot with a gun.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:45 PM   #156
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What about Grosskreutz? Haven't seen much criticism of a guy who showed up to a riot with a gun.
Weird how it's the guy who killed a bunch of people getting the focus.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:48 PM   #157
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He's not on trial and didn't shoot anyone, but sure, he can be criticized for brandishing a weapon as well. Although I think he was justified in trying to disarm Rittenhouse after he killed someone.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:59 PM   #158
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Weird how it's the guy who killed a bunch of people getting the focus.
Only because, in the cast of Grosskreutz he shot first.


You guys are letting your politics and opinions of gun laws get in the way of objectivity.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:04 PM   #159
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The left narrative that Kyle was an active shooter doesn't fit the witness and video evidence but, who cares amirite?
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:09 PM   #160
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The left narrative that Kyle was an active shooter doesn't fit the witness and video evidence but, who cares amirite?
It's not a left or right issue. Probably at least half the people in this thread being critical of Rittenhouse and stupid gun laws are right-leaning or centrist based on their posting history on other topics.

I understand why he is likely going to be found not guilty and don't totally disagree with the logic, but there are numerous reasons why he can also be fairly criticized for the events that unfolded.
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