The Deal With Geoff Ward

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think Toronto and Winnipeg are ahead of the group. I like Winnipeg's forward group a lot more with the strength up the middle and nice skill overall.

I think you then have a big ball of mediocre in the middle with Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, and Vancouver.

Right now I'd be tempted to put Edmonton slightly ahead on the strength of McDavid. Though it's hard to ignore their terrible goaltending.

1. Toronto
2. Winnipeg
3-6: Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Vancouver
7: Ottawa

That's how I see it. Nothing puts Calgary ahead of that middle grouping.

If Edmonton doesn’t overpay Koskinen, or Kassian, or Russell, they can afford Markstrom. Scary. I actually like to think that they were $750K short (the Lucic retention).

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think so. Just watch them - this is assumption and confirmation bias by a lot of people. And I agree with the same people who say this about other aspects of the system, especially defensively, so it’s not just me disagreeing.

They just don’t intentionally retreat to D to D passes absent a line change, or on rare occasions when they go to pass and the pass suddenly closes off.

Generally, they take what’s available. The issues come in the neutral zone. The forwards get funnelled and don’t try to avoid it. A lot of it has to do with weakness at RW on the top two lines. Some has to do with tunnel vision and tendencies that they revert to.

I don't know what else to say to you. They do. A lot. It isn't confirmation bias when lots of people are seeing it - and not just here, we're getting analysts saying it too. It's right there on the screen every night.

If you don't see it it, maybe that's on you, and not some collective confirmation bias.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think Toronto and Winnipeg are ahead of the group. I like Winnipeg's forward group a lot more with the strength up the middle and nice skill overall.

I think you then have a big ball of mediocre in the middle with Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, and Vancouver.

Right now I'd be tempted to put Edmonton slightly ahead on the strength of McDavid. Though it's hard to ignore their terrible goaltending.

1. Toronto
2. Winnipeg
3-6: Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Vancouver
7: Ottawa

That's how I see it. Nothing puts Calgary ahead of that middle grouping.

WPG has a strong forward group but a very thin defensive group.

Few were putting them ahead of the Flames before the season started (and I don't mean here, I mean national media)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't know what else to say to you. They do. A lot. It isn't confirmation bias when lots of people are seeing it - and not just here, we're getting analysts saying it too. It's right there on the screen every night.

If you don't see it it, maybe that's on you, and not some collective confirmation bias.

I don’t just not see it. I counted them just because of this issue. A doesn’t a line change, maybe 3 times in the last game.

They push the puck into areas that are covered just to try and move out of the zone quickly. In fact, against Toronto, they were being picked off on stretch passes all night.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If Edmonton doesn’t overpay Koskinen, or Kassian, or Russell, they can afford Markstrom. Scary. I actually like to think that they were $750K short (the Lucic retention).

The only saving grace this season is that Edmonton didn't get Markstrom.
I don't even want to know how depressing it would be around here if that had happened.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

WPG has a strong forward group but a very thin defensive group.

Few were putting them ahead of the Flames before the season started (and I don't mean here, I mean national media)

Media didn’t anticipate Gio tumbling hard. He’s still listed as the #6 LD in the league on some sites.

[Enoch Root]

The bottom line is that NO ONE (other than KootaneyFlamesFan and maybe Jiri) has the Flames missing the playoffs and a rung below MTL, WPG and EDM.

They should not be where they are.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t just not see it. I counted them just because of this issue. A doesn’t a line change, maybe 3 times in the last game.

They push the puck into areas that are covered just to try and move out of the zone quickly. In fact, against Toronto, they were being picked off on stretch passes all night.

Two things:

1) could have just been that game

2) sounds like you were making a subjective count (don't count it if there's a line change), well guess what, once the puck is turned over, there is a good chance that someone is going for a line change.

(in other words, maybe a little confirmation bias?)

[Calgary4LIfe]

Simple way to fix confirmation bias on if the Flames move the puck quickly or sit and wait.


Get a notebook, make two columns, and keep track.


This removes a lot of confirmation biases about a lot of things. I am betting (without performing this exercise myself) that the Flames sit in their zone for a long time making changes and getting ready to transition. That quick pass up the ice or the defencemen skating up the ice with the puck immediately after getting possession is not so common now in their gameplan.


Hartley made it illegal to rim the puck around from defencemen-to-defencemen. I love Sarich, but he thought it was stupid. Why? Probably because his game doesn't fit the quick-up, fast transition game. IIRC, he also had the rule of no D-to-D passing (or was it more than once? Had to go from D to F, or under forecheck pressure, D-D-F quickly - something like that). The D couldn't send it back and forth in their own zone anyway.



Now we heard from Versteeg that coach Q didn't allow the team to do similar things in their own zone.


This team does play awfully slow. Heck, maybe a few of us should grab a notebook out and make a few ticks next game. It seems to me like the stationary D holding onto pucks waiting to break out happens all the time - I am sure it isn't all the time, but it sure feels like it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Two things:

1) could have just been that game

2) sounds like you were making a subjective count (don't count it if there's a line change), well guess what, once the puck is turned over, there is a good chance that someone is going for a line change.

(in other words, maybe a little confirmation bias?)

1. Nah, I have been watching this since people started talking about D to D. It’s the same every night.

2. I’m only counting line changes where it’s obvious - where they back right up and hold for a complete change.

Anyway, I’m not convincing you, I just know that I’ve specifically looked at it and I didn’t expect the result (therefore no confirmation bias possible).

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The bottom line is that NO ONE (other than KootaneyFlamesFan and maybe Jiri) has the Flames missing the playoffs and a rung below MTL, WPG and EDM.

They should not be where they are.

I'm not sure I've ever said what you posted? Unless I was drinking one night and don't remember.

I think the Flames are very overrated. I don't think they should be a lock for the playoffs, at all. I agree with Jiri that they could finish anywhere from 3-7. Markstrom alone could get them into the playoffs, but he needs help from a very underwhelming and inconsistent forward group.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I'm not sure I've ever said what you posted? Unless I was drinking one night and don't remember.

I think the Flames are very overrated. I don't think they should be a lock for the playoffs, at all. I agree with Jiri that they could finish anywhere from 3-7. Markstrom alone could get them into the playoffs, but he needs help from a very underwhelming and inconsistent forward group.

I had them second because I overestimated the forwards, especially Tkachuk, and I overestimated Gio’s year. I also figured at least one of those depth UFAs would add something.

I also underestimated Montreal though they could still tumble IMO. Edmonton has gotten slightly better tending than I expected, allowing them to outscore the opposition in a few more games. I don’t want to say I underestimated Winnipeg because I have always thought they had good pieces. I just always have them underachieving in the back of my mind.

[zamler]

Don't see how anyone can watch this team and disagree with what Versteeg said.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by zamler

Don't see how anyone can watch this team and disagree with what Versteeg said.

Well, I explained why, so either you didn’t read it or you didn’t understand what I wrote.

[timbit]

Yes, I do. I watch every game closely. He’s off base with the “ standing behind the net”.
Yes, on line changes. Hardly ever, in any other circumstance.

He’s still got some buddies on the team.

Tough for him to be objective.

The truth, IMO, is that the veteran star players are terribly inconsistent, with the exception of Markstrom and Tanev. But, they just got here.

Yet, they play and act like leaders. Gio is in the 4th quarter.

Would be nice if some of the veteran top flames would consistently follow their example.

You know...like give their best every shift, actually be a high end competitor.

That’s a big reason why they look slow.

You asked, just my opinion.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, I explained why, so either you didn’t read it or you didn’t understand what I wrote.

We understand what you wrote, but that doesn't make you right

(to recap: I think they don't do something as much as others do so I will count the instances, but I won't include instances that I can dismiss for my arbitrary reasons and to my arbitrary level - and presto! I am right! - and no, I do not believe I am guilty of confirmation bias)

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Where would you rank them in the Canadian division?

For me, Toronto is clear #1 but Calgary/Winnipeg should be competing for #2.

Ultimately, the CAD division doesn't have any 'complete' teams like COL, VGK, STL, WAS, NYI, BOS, PHI, TBL, CAR (of course each of these teams have flaws, but I'd argue less so than any CAD team, except maybe TOR).

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

WPG has a strong forward group but a very thin defensive group.

Few were putting them ahead of the Flames before the season started (and I don't mean here, I mean national media)

WIN's strong two-way forward group and goaltending do a lot to make up for their thin blue line.

CGY's blue line has been okay (perhaps different than expected), but certainly not enough to make up for the general mess...everywhere


I can't say I've watched them that closely, but I'm not sure there is that much between most of:

Andersson...Pionk
Hanifin...Morrissey
Tanev...Forbort
Gio...Beaulieu
Valimaki...Demelo
Nesterov...various


I'd take the Flame in every instance, but I guess I'm just not sure WPG's D is that bad. It's just thin and unremarkable. Typical TDL D acquisitions would do a lot to shore it up.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by timbit

Yes, I do. I watch every game closely. He’s off base with the “ standing behind the net”.
Yes, on line changes. Hardly ever, in any other circumstance.

He’s still got some buddies on the team.

Tough for him to be objective.

The truth, IMO, is that the veteran star players are terribly inconsistent, with the exception of Markstrom and Tanev. But, they just got here.

Yet, they play and act like leaders. Gio is in the 4th quarter.

Would be nice if some of the veteran top flames would consistently follow their example.

You know...like give their best every shift, actually be a high end competitor.

That’s a big reason why they look slow.

You asked, just my opinion.

I don't think many people make it to the NHL that aren't high end competitors. Definitely not a team full of them.

At the end of the day these are humans, not machines. They are subject to ups and downs. If you've ever had a bad boss you know they can suck the energy out of even the most exuberant employee.

I think Ward doesn't have the answers for the team, and with 80 games under him doing the same failing things over and over again it may be grinding the team down.

I have a hard time thinking the majority of this team doesn't want to win.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, I explained why, so either you didn’t read it or you didn’t understand what I wrote.

Those are the only choices, okay then.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We understand what you wrote, but that doesn't make you right

(to recap: I think they don't do something as much as others do so I will count the instances, but I won't include instances that I can dismiss for my arbitrary reasons and to my arbitrary level - and presto! I am right! - and no, I do not believe I am guilty of confirmation bias)

I told you - I had no idea what they did - I assumed people were accurate. I watched to see how much they did this and what else they could do, and I was surprised that they weren’t going D to D. So it can’t be confirmation bias.

Tell me how often they stood behind the net other than on full line changes, like Versteeg said. Tell me how often they went D to D at all versus how many times the first pass went up ice. If they were coached to do so, the majority would be D to D. It’s just not happening.