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Old 09-19-2021, 09:18 AM   #10001
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I've also said this before, but the ethics scandals really don't resonate with me.

When the NDP says they are going to kill O&G or implement ridiculous economic policies that directly affect my livelihood, that resonates with me and makes sure I will never vote for them. When the Conservatives were extremely socially conservative in 2019, that resonated and made sure they were not an option either.

I personally don't trust that O'Toole can keep the party in this positive direction for any amount of time, but if the CPC keep going this way they will become a viable option in 2023.

Personally, I am rooting for a Liberal majority - primarily so that the NDP can go back to irrelevance. The other way would be a Liberal minority in which the Conservatives actually contribute to policy rather than let the NDP be the kingmaker, but that's probably a utopian dream.
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Old 09-19-2021, 09:58 AM   #10002
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For me the biggest concern is the anti-science movement becoming more extreme. I'm surrounded by conservative anti-vaxxers at work, who were big Trump fans and who have let their racism filters relax in the past couple of years. Many Liberal election signs over the past few weeks in Vaughan look like they have been smashed and kicked to the ground.

Ford still has shame and eventually caved to his science table after he went into hiding during the third wave. The Federal liberals helped to keep him in check during that time, and put pressure on him to do the right thing. I am genuinely frightened to think what would have happened with a conservative Prime Minister, or a conservative premier with no shame like Jason.

There was a large anti-science protest in Toronto this weekend. I'm not going to consider voting for politicians that support or even appease this movement.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:08 AM   #10003
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At some point, you start to wonder why the CPC even bothers moving towards the center... Apparently, unless they fully become the Liberal Party they're still going to be tied to the far right by just about everyone whose vote they might want to woo.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:13 AM   #10004
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There was a large anti-science protest in Toronto this weekend. I'm not going to consider voting for politicians that support or even appease this movement.
I am concerned that this anti-science, anti-establishment, anti-intellectualism movement is snowballing. The rise of the PPC, the violent rhetoric continuing to persist across the country in elections - this doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.

And the media - and technology that allows everybody a microphone - seem to be the catalyst for bad takes, misinformation, conspiracies, and outright lies.

Toxic populism in the Western world is infecting otherwise mostly decent people. I truly believe 2016 was the start of this with the election of Trump, and it has snowballed in mass numbers ever since.

My only hope is that actions continue to have consequences - stiffer consequences - for people who want to demonstrate too much bravado on the rights of others. And I hope that we can weave a respect for community back into our social fabric that, in times of need such as a pandemic, takes precedence over the (supposed) infringement of individual rights. Vaccines and mask are not unreasonable requests and are not the same as things we've seen during wars or civil strife.

Canada seems to be infected by this toxic populism and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:20 AM   #10005
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^ it’s a troubling time and misinformation tends to gets amplified when people can’t cope.

Just like the economy, we desperately need to get covid under control in this country so we can deal with the social problems it’s exposed.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:28 AM   #10006
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What good is a fully costed policy? What government costing has ever come close to hitting the mark?



Look at Ontario, the green energy policy was supposed to create jobs and instead it has not created jobs - likely drove jobs out of province due to energy costs - and left Ontario with a lot of debt bad long term contracts etc
Believe Ontarios hydro pricing is now in line with the rest of Canada's now. Definitely was a hit at the time but over time its evened out and Ontario doesn't use coal for electricity any more.

Although have to note Ontario has the advantage of having nuclear plants built long ago that brings in most of the power

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Old 09-19-2021, 10:32 AM   #10007
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At some point, you start to wonder why the CPC even bothers moving towards the center... Apparently, unless they fully become the Liberal Party they're still going to be tied to the far right by just about everyone whose vote they might want to woo.
Depends on what they want to be going forward. If they move right they risk becoming a party that can't win even elections. Nothing wrong with that, but if they have aspirations of winning they need to find a path that will allow it to happen.

They can still win minorities, but a majority conservative win may require losing 10 seats in the rural west to gain 50 seats in Ontario and Quebec.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:33 AM   #10008
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At some point, you start to wonder why the CPC even bothers moving towards the center... Apparently, unless they fully become the Liberal Party they're still going to be tied to the far right by just about everyone whose vote they might want to woo.
Well they started this campaign ~12 points behind and have closed the gap. So, there’s that…
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:40 AM   #10009
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Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame View Post
I am concerned that this anti-science, anti-establishment, anti-intellectualism movement is snowballing. The rise of the PPC, the violent rhetoric continuing to persist across the country in elections - this doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.

And the media - and technology that allows everybody a microphone - seem to be the catalyst for bad takes, misinformation, conspiracies, and outright lies.

Toxic populism in the Western world is infecting otherwise mostly decent people. I truly believe 2016 was the start of this with the election of Trump, and it has snowballed in mass numbers ever since.

My only hope is that actions continue to have consequences - stiffer consequences - for people who want to demonstrate too much bravado on the rights of others. And I hope that we can weave a respect for community back into our social fabric that, in times of need such as a pandemic, takes precedence over the (supposed) infringement of individual rights. Vaccines and mask are not unreasonable requests and are not the same as things we've seen during wars or civil strife.

Canada seems to be infected by this toxic populism and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
Do you have data to warrant concerns about anti-science / anti-intellectualism rising?

If it is rising (my question is not presupposing your wrong just asking), why do you think that is?
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:43 AM   #10010
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At some point, you start to wonder why the CPC even bothers moving towards the center... Apparently, unless they fully become the Liberal Party they're still going to be tied to the far right by just about everyone whose vote they might want to woo.
Maybe don't score a couple own goals with 1 minute left in a tie game and they can bemoan why they even bothered playing.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:44 AM   #10011
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At some point, you start to wonder why the CPC even bothers moving towards the center... Apparently, unless they fully become the Liberal Party they're still going to be tied to the far right by just about everyone whose vote they might want to woo.
How else would you propose they become the Liberal party? They've done just about everything but change the name. The CPC platform this year is to the left of the Cretien/Martin liberals.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:44 AM   #10012
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For me the biggest concern is the anti-science movement becoming more extreme. I'm surrounded by conservative anti-vaxxers at work, who were big Trump fans and who have let their racism filters relax in the past couple of years. Many Liberal election signs over the past few weeks in Vaughan look like they have been smashed and kicked to the ground.

Ford still has shame and eventually caved to his science table after he went into hiding during the third wave. The Federal liberals helped to keep him in check during that time, and put pressure on him to do the right thing. I am genuinely frightened to think what would have happened with a conservative Prime Minister, or a conservative premier with no shame like Jason.

There was a large anti-science protest in Toronto this weekend. I'm not going to consider voting for politicians that support or even appease this movement.
But why do you have to drag Alberta into this when you're talking about Ontario. A lot of people are clearly ignorant about how culturally diverse and tolerant Calgary and Alberta in general really is.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:48 AM   #10013
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Believe Ontarios hydro pricing is now in line with the rest of Canada's now. Definitely was a hit at the time but over time its evened out and Ontario doesn't use coal for electricity any more.
That’s only because Ford’s government stepped in to reduce prices. It it was still Wynne’s government, prices would still be high and rising.

https://torontosun.com/news/provinci...ectricity-rate

https://dailyhive.com/toronto/ontari...wn-hydro-bills

Yet even with that action, electricity prices will continue to rise and taxes are being used to offset electrify prices

https://www.thestar.com/politics/pro...-almost-2.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...dies-1.5954872

My point here is that saying that Ontario prices are in line with others without recognizing why is dismissing that there is still a problem.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:50 AM   #10014
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Maybe don't score a couple own goals with 1 minute left in a tie game and they can bemoan why they even bothered playing.

Exactly. Kenny apologized for their handling of the pandemic, it shouldn’t be that hard for O’Toole to follow up and admit the policy was bad.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:56 AM   #10015
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Maybe don't score a couple own goals with 1 minute left in a tie game and they can bemoan why they even bothered playing.
Not to mention whining to the ref right from puck drop.

(I agree this was bad timing on Trudeau’s part but O’Toole’s whining over that would even make Gaudreau cringe)
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:57 AM   #10016
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Maybe don't score a couple own goals with 1 minute left in a tie game and they can bemoan why they even bothered playing.
The own goals were scored right off the kickoff, but yeah, it would help. It's just if you read the posts of the liberal voters in this thread, it's still "I won't vote for anyone who's associated with these people", just like it was last election, as if the PPC doesn't even exist.
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How else would you propose they become the Liberal party? They've done just about everything but change the name. The CPC platform this year is to the left of the Cretien/Martin liberals.
I guess they could basically kick everyone out of the party who doesn't approach politics like they live in the 416.
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Old 09-19-2021, 11:00 AM   #10017
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At some point, you start to wonder why the CPC even bothers moving towards the center... Apparently, unless they fully become the Liberal Party they're still going to be tied to the far right by just about everyone whose vote they might want to woo.
Canada is a centrist country. Harper won as the last conservative premier because his brand was still largely tied to the PC name, and people expected him to govern from the center. But with his harsh stance on drugs, ignoring climate change, muzzling scientists, he moved much further right than Canadians were comfortable with and so he was booted out decisively. O'Toole is still fighting against the right wing stain that Harper left on the party, but he's not doing enough to prove to Canadians that the party has changed. Supporting vaccine passports should be a no brainer, the fact that it's not for him proves there are still too many right wing crazies in the party to influence the platform. If they can ever boot out that contingent and maybe rename the party to something more palatable, they'd have a much easier time trying to win against the Liberals
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Old 09-19-2021, 11:07 AM   #10018
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But why do you have to drag Alberta into this when you're talking about Ontario. A lot of people are clearly ignorant about how culturally diverse and tolerant Calgary and Alberta in general really is.



So far as I understand the majority of Albertans support the party which explicitly endorses the Energy sector. Social conservativism is a small margin of the base. The trouble is that the folks who are single issue voters ( O & G) are willing to ignore - tolerate the bigots and thus get lumped in with them.



The bottom line is a strong O & G sector makes the province ostensibly a better place. I dont think voters are flawed for what they care about. The trouble is they dont care about who they are affiliated with.
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Old 09-19-2021, 11:17 AM   #10019
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I am in Victoria for a couple of weeks and walked by a fairly large protest at the legislature building of anti-vaccine and anti-mask people. I don’t know if it was a PPC event, but there were a lot of PPC signs. I heard the speaker going on and on about how vaccine passports are the beginning of Canada’s descent into Communism. It was interesting to witness.
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Old 09-19-2021, 11:27 AM   #10020
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I am in Victoria for a couple of weeks and walked by a fairly large protest at the legislature building of anti-vaccine and anti-mask people. I don’t know if it was a PPC event, but there were a lot of PPC signs. I heard the speaker going on and on about how vaccine passports are the beginning of Canada’s descent into Communism. It was interesting to witness.


What? In what way do Vaccine Passports correlate to Communism as a Socio-Economic system?

I must be missing something because that makes no sense to me.
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