The more important point of the UBC debate is that it is more than likely coming to the industrialized world whether the people/governments like it or not. It likely won't come down to "well these socialist dreamers can talk about it all they want, but how do we pay for it, huh?! Nope, not happening!".
But it will come down to - the countries that get ahead of the curve on implementation and legitimate strategy to pay for it will be ahead of the curve and countries that ignore it will be forced into it at a bad time with no money to pay for it.
Is pardoning a US thing? Does any other country in the world do this? well other than dictatorships.
A quick perusal of the Wikipedia article suggests it's a widespread practice in quite a few countries including France, Germany and Spain though not sure how often it's utilised - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon
Interesting discussion, but isnt there a general US politics thread or a specific UBI thread we could be using to discuss that rather than cluttering up the election thread with this?
The last US Politics thread was closed on election day. This is all there is right now.
I don't know if there's a UBI thread out there.
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It does seem bizarre. Theoretically you could hire someone to take out your ex-wife, a political opponent or a journalist and then pardon them a year later.
Pardons (by the President) have no effect for State-levied charges and convictions.
As such, since most manslaughter/murder charges are brought at the state level, any pardon would be of limited value.
Unless the governor was the one who issued the pardon, I guess.
But then you’d potentially get into obstruction of justice issues, so I’d think such a scenario would be extremely unlikely to occur.
Pardons (by the President) have no effect for State-levied charges and convictions.
As such, since most manslaughter/murder charges are brought at the state level, any pardon would be of limited value.
Unless the governor was the one who issued the pardon, I guess.
But then you’d potentially get into obstruction of justice issues, so I’d think such a scenario would be extremely unlikely to occur.
There are some jurisdictional arguments about who gets to try a person if it is both a federal crime or a state crime. I believe that you can’t be convicted by both the state and the Fed. I also believe the fed has priority.
So I would assume that Trumps argument would be that the State Crimes are actually Federal crimes which he was pardoned for and it would become a very interesting Supreme Court case.
well after the first obvious self serving pardons, Flynn and Stone are dealt with then it will just be pardons to the highest bidder, my guess is he is setting some kind of ebay type auction website as we speak
Thank you. We just had an election that proved beyond a reasonable doubt that voters have no taste for programs that scream socialism, like UBI. If you want to talk about that craziness take it to the UBI thread. There's enough insanity in the United States to talk about. So forget the progressives, forget the crazy liberals, and forget socialistic ideas that have no hope of gaining traction. We need to focus on getting the country back on the road to sanity and finding the center before we can even think about some of these far left ideas. I just want to feel safe walking down the street again.
A question related to the UBI discussion that is relevant to this thread is just how instantly judgmental the voting public is upon the invocation of socialism. The word itself. There is an immediate association with communism. Language lost the Dems seats in the Senate and the House.
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"We don't even know who our best player is yet. It could be any one of us at this point." - Peter LaFleur, player/coach, Average Joe's Gymnasium
A question related to the UBI discussion that is relevant to this thread is just how instantly judgmental the voting public is upon the invocation of socialism. The word itself. There is an immediate association with communism. Language lost the Dems seats in the Senate and the House.
I despise Bill Maher in general, but he nailed the idea a couple decade ago that "socialism" is a bad a word in America, and invoking it is a very strong way to nullify policy or ideas.
There are some jurisdictional arguments about who gets to try a person if it is both a federal crime or a state crime. I believe that you can’t be convicted by both the state and the Fed. I also believe the fed has priority.
So I would assume that Trumps argument would be that the State Crimes are actually Federal crimes which he was pardoned for and it would become a very interesting Supreme Court case.
That would be quite the argument, because how could you plausibly argue that you are being indicted/convicted by an entity that has done no such thing and under statutes that were not pled by the entity that actually did indict/convict under statutes that the other entity did not enact and cannot apply?
Additionally, I guess it would make some sense for the small government/states rights Republicans to try to claim that a State crime is really a Federal crime, given how they flip flop on pretty much everything when it is in their immediate interest to do so.
The US, Russia, and 32 other countries have been part of the Open Skies treaty since 1992 which allows its member nations to fly over any other member nation's country to collect reconnaissance from the air and then review whatever is captured. The idea obviously is to dissuade its member nations from doing things in secret, which could be seen from the air.
Pompeo confirmed earlier this week that the US is withdrawing from this treaty as a member. To do so actually requires the administration to go to Congress for approval four months prior, but they've obviously ignored this requirement. Oh, and if Biden plans to simply rejoin since Trump withdrew without going to Congress, well go for it, because in addition to withdrawing from the treaty, the Trump administration has also confirmed that they have already started liquidating the equipment of the two planes used for these flights.
Totally normal. One last gift to Putin.
Last edited by activeStick; 11-25-2020 at 06:24 PM.
A question related to the UBI discussion that is relevant to this thread is just how instantly judgmental the voting public is upon the invocation of socialism. The word itself. There is an immediate association with communism. Language lost the Dems seats in the Senate and the House.
You can blame that on Ronald Reagan. During the 80s Reagan and the conservatives attacked socialism in a similar way the Republicans did during the red scare and eliminated communism from the political spectrum. These two terms now have such a negative connotation that they force Americans to react to them in a visceral manner. Americans are programmed this way, even though, when asked, they cannot define either term or explain the ideology in any rational way. It is bizarre, but it is America. And yes, in many parts of the country just being labelled as such is a death sentence to an aspiring political career or shift support away from even a proven quantity who has bona fides to the counter.
To add, Newt Gingrich tried to do the same with the term liberal, but met varying levels of success.
Unlikely, the pardon power is pretty explicit. Many tried to argue that Trump couldn't pardon Arpaio because he was an official infringing on others' Constitutional rights but the judge turned that down and said the pardon was valid.
EDIT: Maybe if he sold a pardon for $1B and was impeached as a result?
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