Falcon and the Winter Soldier (Spoilers Thread)

[GGG]

In my head canon he took it after that fight and the conversation with Haskins is trying to justify it.

Agree with you on Zemo being plot armour but I did enjoy the expression on his face as he leaves. I enjoy his character too much to worry about those details.

[BMStrikesAgain]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Cool story.

Maybe just stop watching. If you dislike it so much why would you even bother coming all the way into this thread just to say that?

Seems like an odd choice.

All the way in the thread?? Did you have to tunnel for weeks to get here or something?? Lol

I'll be here after the next couple episodes too.

[#-3]

Emasculation seems 100% on the nose for Walkers driving motivation.

Exploration around the themes of impostors syndrome, male fragility... seems to be Marvels favorite idea space to work in.

Thor not being able to lift his hammer (ED reference)
Tony wishing he could wrap the entire world in his suit of armour
Hulk refusing to come out. (ED reference)
Peters tingle not working (ED reference)
Peter giving up EDITH because he didn't think he could handle it.
Walker needing the blue medicine so he can keep up (ED reference)
.....

I was pretty unsure of what direction they were going with Walker, but I'm pretty sure they are going to redeem him as a hero now. Whenever the motives the are exploring are fears that not enough can be done we are looking at a hero, when the motives are confidence "I" can fix everything we are looking at a villain.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I feel like Walker taking the serum after Hoskins died would have made more sense if not been more formulaic. But if they wanted to push Walker as 'grey' and conflicted with the audience some more I think having him to take the serum as a result of failing to save his friend against super soldiers (adding to the long list of people he failed to save) would have made a lot of sense. Maybe they wanted commentary on even having super powers doesn't mean you can save everyone.

not to argue, but I just can't put Walker as Grey or conflicted.



I mean first of all, that was as straight up murder as it gets, the guy had pretty much surrendered and wasn't the one that killed Hoskins. In the great span of things, it wasn't even a worthwhile death and Walker really got nothing out of it, no intelligence or insight.



As far as conflicted, Walked isn't to me conflicted in any way, if anything he's very directed and focused on his way, on his methods, and even taking the serum after that talk with Hoskins, he took it based on his moral code that anything that he does in theory is the right path. You look at when he busted in on Falcon during his conversation because time is up. Walked is a man of action, however he's also got an inferiority complex and a ridiculous jaw line.



He thinks or feels that everything he does is justified as long as its in pursuit of a higher moral or ethical code that he's built around himself. He's the guy that's willing to kill hundreds and imprison thousands if it helps him attain his mission objective of capturing one guy as ordered.


That makes the super soldier serum extremely dangerous in his reigns. Red Skull wanted to basically be a god and hold sway over all of society, in his mind Those two justifications were right, when he took the serum, it became x 10.



Steve Rogers, was virtuous, didn't like bullies, but at the same time didn't really want to kill anything. The serum really accentuated his personality, though frankly he killed a lot of people, but not without reason.


With Walker, he's duty driven, he now wants revenge over justice, and he's very ends justify the means, imagine the serum applifying that personality. You don't get a new hitler, or a new red skull. You get a General Buck Turgidson.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by #-3

Emasculation seems 100% on the nose for Walkers driving motivation.

Exploration around the themes of impostors syndrome, male fragility... seems to be Marvels favorite idea space to work in.

Thor not being able to lift his hammer (ED reference)
Tony wishing he could wrap the entire world in his suit of armour
Hulk refusing to come out. (ED reference)
Peters tingle not working (ED reference)
Peter giving up EDITH because he didn't think he could handle it.
Walker needing the blue medicine so he can keep up (ED reference)
.....

I was pretty unsure of what direction they were going with Walker, but I'm pretty sure they are going to redeem him as a hero now. Whenever the motives the are exploring are fears that not enough can be done we are looking at a hero, when the motives are confidence "I" can fix everything we are looking at a villain.

You know if you think about it, Agents of Shield explored this arc with Glenn Talbot in the same way. He was a guy that believed he could fix everything and save everyone, but when he got ultimate power, he became a great villain.

[rogermexico]

The part of the show that works best is the exploration of the question "Who is Captain America" through the five main characters. And there are two ways to answer that question: you can answer what he "is" and you can answer what he "means." And Sam, Bucky, Zemo, Karli and Walker all have different answers for both of those. And they're all close in some respects but wrong in other respects.
Zemo, Karli and Walker (and to a degree Sam) all think that Captain America "is" the Super Soldier. They think that he's defined by the serum and the power that it gives him.
They all think he "means" different things. Karli thinks he means Justice at a macro level. Walker thinks something similar but what he really thinks is that he means "duty" or more importantly "power." Zemo thinks that he means "power" in the most authoritarian sense of the word.
All of them are wrong about what he "is" though. Steve's super power wasn't that he was a super solider - that was secondary. Steve's power is that he always knew right from wrong, no matter the circumstances.
Bucky understands this because he knows what it's like to have your ability to tell right from wrong taken away. But Bucky can't articulate this well because of his guilt and grief.
Sam sort of but doesn't really get this. But what the show is building up for us is that Sam has the same super power. He just has to refine his ability to use it. Like, he can use it with Karli but he has a blind spot around his own sister and his responsibilities to her and what they mean. But we feel like he will figure that out.

This is also why the Sharon arc is kind of not working, because she isn't connected to this exploration - at least not yet. It's hard to tell if she's going to be or if this whole Mardripoor / Power Broker arc is more about the genre and bringing in political complexity to play into the spy movie conventions that they like to play with in the Cap series.

[Scorch]

Is nobody else going to point out that Turkish delights don’t look like hard candy?

[Duruss]

Walker is going exactly like I want, he has a misogynistic streak in the comics that they gave some nuance to when I think he snaps and takes the serum after the Dora Milaje beat down; one of them even stripped him of his shield. This is what broke him, I think the later conversation with Battlestar was trying to justify it to himself.

Cool trick Okoye pulled on Bucky. Now my question is why didn't Bucky tell Okoye why he needs Zemo and what's at stake? Must just be plot stupidity as is required.

And finally Walkers murder of that dude was perfect. Zemo won big with it getting filmed. For a sec I thought it was going to be a decapitation, in comics it likely would, but the bludgeoning was much more dramatic and really helped sell the scene.

I love my marvel comics knowledge really lets me enjoy the ride.

[photon]

Why would Sam and Bucky jump in in that fight with the Dora Milaje? Or were they actually going to kill Walker?

But yeah great ending to the episode, really enjoying the show.

[Duruss]

Originally Posted by photon

Why would Sam and Bucky jump in in that fight with the Dora Milaje? Or were they actually going to kill Walker?

But yeah great ending to the episode, really enjoying the show.

Been thinking about that and I think it was to save Zemo. Our protagonists still need him, but his successful assassination of T'Chaka is still a great affront to the Dora Milaje and they want him likely very dead.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

As far as conflicted, Walked isn't to me conflicted in any way, if anything he's very directed and focused on his way, on his methods, and even taking the serum after that talk with Hoskins, he took it based on his moral code that anything that he does in theory is the right path. You look at when he busted in on Falcon during his conversation because time is up. Walked is a man of action, however he's also got an inferiority complex and a ridiculous jaw line.

That "man of action" I think amounts to being impatient and hotheaded. Both of which got amplified resulting in him bashing the skull of the wrong person. But I think he still wants to do good and, probably more importantly, be seen as doing good. Which is why I think we see the regret in the end after he sees everyone watching.

[FireGilbert]

[Parallex]

Wyatt Russell is really good. I'd never seen him in anything before this all I knew about him was that he was Kurt and Goldie's son but he's got some good chops.

I hope Walker does a double turn in the last episode because I wouldn't mind seeing a U.S. Agent Disney+ show in the future.

[Coach]

Each episode gets better. Sam's scene with Bradley was fantastic.

Super pumped to see what Shuri made for Sam.

[GreenLantern]

That was a good episode. 4 was still the best, 5 is close though.

So many moving parts coming to a head in the finale, will be very entertaining for sure.

Did not expect Elaine to show up, her cameo was great though. GSP is back. Agent Carter is up to something. Pretty good amount of loose ends to tie up.

Episode length was great to.

There is a mid credits scene this week in case anyone missed it.

[CMPunk]

So Julia Louis-Dreyfus is

NSFW!

Madam Hydra?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Wyatt Russell is really good. I'd never seen him in anything before this all I knew about him was that he was Kurt and Goldie's son but he's got some good chops.

I hope Walker does a double turn in the last episode because I wouldn't mind seeing a U.S. Agent Disney+ show in the future.

Do yourself a favour....'Lodge 49.'

You're welcome.

[#-3]

I thought that was wonderful, almost played like a second act full feature, just missing an ending.

I could never really grasp why Sam would put down the wings in favor of the shield. I like the false cap breaking the wings as the symbolic inflection point. I like him earning the strength before he puts on a blank panther suit to give himself that super hero imperviousness required for hand to hand combat (not that his jet back cant help him slip away from every punch), it was different but Steve too had the prove himself and earn his strength (jumping on a grenade...). I think Marvel has always been ahead of the curve with how they approach social justice issues but having Sam going from episode 1 running away from that history, to middle of episode 5 really fully grappling with it, to the end of episode choose to try and overcome it is a sneaky good character arc.

Casting was really good in this show. I'm excited for more Walker, the way Valentina showed up I think Walker might show up for the big fight, but both of them will be loose threads at the end of the series, there just isn't anytime to draw either of those characters to a conclusion, and this isn't their story. I think killing off Lemar will haunt the MCU the way killing off Quicksilver did, good character, good actor, didn't even get a chance to do anything with him. If Torres takes up the wings, he will make a really good sidekick, everything about his character oozes sidekick. Bucky & Sams sister having chemistry is just perfect, it's just a little bit of Bucky finally going back to who he was before WWII, which he just wasn't ready to do in the first episode. The ladies man, [Whats that Steve? you don't want one of the Girls? It's OK, I'll take both!].

I'm now thinking the Power Broker is not so much a person but 'Power Broker Inc.' and Sharon has fought her way to the top of a pre-existing organization. I wonder if she will reveal herself to Sam and Bucky by the end of all of this, or just to the audience. I think this probably depends on how quick of a turn around they can have on season two or getting these characters back into one of the movies, if these loose threads are going to linger through another "avengers scale" event the might need to let Sam and Bucky know where things stand

[Oling_Roachinen]

When Sam was training and becoming Captain America and his nephew started running with him they should have had them run around the house with Sam passing him with an "on your left" quip. Missed opportunity Marvel!

Also I was way off on where I thought they were going with Walker.

[Duruss]

Originally Posted by Duruss

Been thinking about that and I think it was to save Zemo. Our protagonists still need him, but his successful assassination of T'Chaka is still a great affront to the Dora Milaje and they want him likely very dead.

Well now I don't get why Sam and Bucky joined that fight, they were done with Zemo? And the Dora M were not going to kill him, they just really wanted him back in jail.