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Old 02-21-2014, 07:58 AM   #21
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Was going to start a thread on this but was a little hazy on the details, so thanks for starting it! Turns out I woulda written pretty much what the OP had written so I guess I have a little bit of a grasp. Anyway have been following this closely as my family is largely Ukrainian (and Eastern European when not) in decent. I don't consider myself Ukrainian as it's been 4 generations I think (3 or 4, and my grandparents never really talked about it, even as I got older and asked questions) but we did always celebrate Ukrainian Christmas, had been to Ukrainian Catholic churches on occasions, Ukrainian decorations and mementos around the house, my cousins even did Ukrainian dancing for a while.

Was speaking to a 1st generation Ukrainian about this about 10 days ago, he moved when he was in his early teens I believe, and he mentioned that while it is a big mess and he hopes they are able to distance themselves from Russia, that Russia had slowly been gaining influence for a while and he was disappointed the people hadn't done more earlier. 'No one cares till it's too late,' were his exact words.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:22 AM   #22
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This video's making it's rounds on FB

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Old 02-21-2014, 08:45 AM   #23
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Corruption? In the Ukraine? Is it Friday already?
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:00 AM   #24
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This video's making it's rounds on FB

She need a green card or a sponsor?
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:08 AM   #25
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This video's making it's rounds on FB

god that video really moved me. was tough for my mom to watch too, her whole side of the family is Ukrainian. i had no idea things were this bad over there. just horrible.

and i feel so guilty too cuz the whole time i was like "jesus this woman is gorgeous"
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:11 AM   #26
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Essential reading on the background, the political dynamics and the propaganda surrounding this protest:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...ne/?insrc=hpss
I can't thank you enough for posting that article. Really appreciate it.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:23 AM   #27
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Was going to start a thread on this but was a little hazy on the details, so thanks for starting it! Turns out I woulda written pretty much what the OP had written so I guess I have a little bit of a grasp. Anyway have been following this closely as my family is largely Ukrainian (and Eastern European when not) in decent. I don't consider myself Ukrainian as it's been 4 generations I think (3 or 4, and my grandparents never really talked about it, even as I got older and asked questions) but we did always celebrate Ukrainian Christmas, had been to Ukrainian Catholic churches on occasions, Ukrainian decorations and mementos around the house, my cousins even did Ukrainian dancing for a while.

Was speaking to a 1st generation Ukrainian about this about 10 days ago, he moved when he was in his early teens I believe, and he mentioned that while it is a big mess and he hopes they are able to distance themselves from Russia, that Russia had slowly been gaining influence for a while and he was disappointed the people hadn't done more earlier. 'No one cares till it's too late,' were his exact words.
That is similar to my family. I had a Rusyn grandmother on my mother's side (not to be confused with "Russian" despite the similar sounding name. Rusyns identify as Ukrainians). She converted Catholic, but we still celebrated the Orthodox holidays (commonly called "Ukrainian holidays" in Canada). I even had the Rusyn folk outfit when I was really small. I haven't kept up with that side of my family since my mother died when I was fairly young and we moved, but the one thing that I always remember is how much they disliked Russians!

A lot of historians consider Ukrainians to the be the original precursor to modern Russians and the current Russian state. It's a politically sensitive topic though, and I won't even begin to try and argue for or against it.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:49 PM   #28
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Surprisingly enough, the Western powers did something. After the US and EU started threatening Ukraine with sanctions (started a day or two ago), a rather quick settlement has been reached.

The 2004 constitution will be reinstated, a new presidential election will be held, and a new "joint government" (no details yet) will be formed. Also, former president Timoshenko, and important figure for the opposition, is likely to be released from jailed.

This is from Finnish news.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:53 PM   #29
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This is just an incredibly sad and depressing situation in which the country is being torn apart. I know that there has been political instability in the Ukraine for a long time, but the degree of violence is just appalling.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:54 PM   #30
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Here's a source detailing the settlement:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...full-statement

And here's a link saying it's not really necessarily as done as it sounds.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...-ukraine-talks

In any case the bloodshed seems to have stopped for now.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:01 PM   #31
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Surprisingly enough, the Western powers did something. After the US and EU started threatening Ukraine with sanctions (started a day or two ago), a rather quick settlement has been reached.

The 2004 constitution will be reinstated, a new presidential election will be held, and a new "joint government" (no details yet) will be formed. Also, former president Timoshenko, and important figure for the opposition, is likely to be released from jailed.

This is from Finnish news.
I hate to be a downer, but I think it's only a matter of time until Russia pulls the rope back the other way. They still have too much leverage on Ukraine's economy. In fact, every time Ukraine tries to westernize, Russia pulls something (shut's off their gas, bribes them with bailout money, etc...).
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:32 PM   #32
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I hate to be a downer, but I think it's only a matter of time until Russia pulls the rope back the other way. They still have too much leverage on Ukraine's economy. In fact, every time Ukraine tries to westernize, Russia pulls something (shut's off their gas, bribes them with bailout money, etc...).
Yes, Russia has influence over Ukraine, but it's not like they have any interest in violence and instability across their border. Also, this is so NOT the real issue, even though large parts of western media, who generally don't even bother actually send reporters to Ukraine, only care about the EU/Russia thing.

Really the whole political situation in Ukraine is a lot more complicated than "bad Russia wants to keep little old Ukraine down, while good West just wants to play nice".

Pretty much the only thing that's making money in Ukraine right now is the heavy industry in the more russified East Ukraine. Considering that the country is on the brink of a financial collapse, it's really very understandable and to some extent their only option, to do what the people who keep the country going financially want.

Also, Russia has been willing to support the Ukraine in a way that the EU isn't. Of course this doesn't come without a price, but nobody would expect it to. (
They have also been selling farmland to the Chinese.)

However, none of the above is the reason why there's essentially an attempt at a revolution in Ukraine. The EU/Russia thing is just the thing creating sparts, but the powder keg is the (perceived) lack of democracy.

I was in Ukraine last summer, and met with people there, and have been following the development somewhat, although it's not that easy.

The perception of the rioting people is that the Ukrainian government has been trying to do what Hungary and Belarus already did, create a right-wing dictatorship. And they weren't down with that.

So the whole economy/east/west thing is more of a backdrop to what is really a pretty basic fight for human rights. They are demanding independent courts, end to corruption (good look with that, the political opposition is pretty hopeless in that way afaik) and a "more democratic" system in general.

Funnily enough, the "terribly undemocratic" system in Ukraine isn't that different from what it is for example in the US. The biggest party is the winner, regardless of how much of the popular vote they actually get. However, in a multiparty system this has created a situation where the divided opposition feels it has been scammed out of power.

Which is both true (this was deliberate on the part of the ruling party) and false (really the opposition shoot itself in the foot by not being able to unite and play the system like it's designed).
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:44 PM   #33
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Hmm, thought I'd add this:

The lack of democracy thing is something that I can't really confirm whether it's a real or perceived issue. However, from all I've heard and read over the years, I think it's pretty obvious that the court system is almost complete political control and used to intimidate and harass political opponents, so in that sense I'm sure the strong opposition is justified.

My guess is that this was, as the demonstrators say, pretty much the last chance for Ukrainians to try and stop the country turning into a dictatorship. But I can't base that feeling on solid facts.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:01 PM   #34
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Funnily enough, the "terribly undemocratic" system in Ukraine isn't that different from what it is for example in the US. The biggest party is the winner, regardless of how much of the popular vote they actually get. However, in a multiparty system this has created a situation where the divided opposition feels it has been scammed out of power.
Canada suffers from the same thing.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:28 PM   #35
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Absolutely sickening and disgusting the lengths people will go to to stay in power and to stifle positive change.

I guess we really shouldn't be surprised, this is human history throughout the ages. It seems to be the most narcissistic rise to power and have no problem killing others willfully in order to keep their power.

To us it is not logical. It really just does not make sense, and a lot of this world does not make sense and it is frightening.

We are living in interesting times. In North America and Europe, we are fighting for equal rights for all people, globalization is taking underdeveloped countries and rapidly developing them and brave people around the world are fighting tyrants in North Africa, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe. The people have the ability to affect change in their country and we are all living it. I wish the progressive people of Ukraine and other countries struggling at the moment nothing but the best in their struggle.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:42 PM   #36
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Yes, Russia has influence over Ukraine, but it's not like they have any interest in violence and instability across their border. Also, this is so NOT the real issue, even though large parts of western media, who generally don't even bother actually send reporters to Ukraine, only care about the EU/Russia thing.

Really the whole political situation in Ukraine is a lot more complicated than "bad Russia wants to keep little old Ukraine down, while good West just wants to play nice".

Pretty much the only thing that's making money in Ukraine right now is the heavy industry in the more russified East Ukraine. Considering that the country is on the brink of a financial collapse, it's really very understandable and to some extent their only option, to do what the people who keep the country going financially want.

Also, Russia has been willing to support the Ukraine in a way that the EU isn't. Of course this doesn't come without a price, but nobody would expect it to. (
They have also been selling farmland to the Chinese.)

However, none of the above is the reason why there's essentially an attempt at a revolution in Ukraine. The EU/Russia thing is just the thing creating sparts, but the powder keg is the (perceived) lack of democracy.

I was in Ukraine last summer, and met with people there, and have been following the development somewhat, although it's not that easy.

The perception of the rioting people is that the Ukrainian government has been trying to do what Hungary and Belarus already did, create a right-wing dictatorship. And they weren't down with that.

So the whole economy/east/west thing is more of a backdrop to what is really a pretty basic fight for human rights. They are demanding independent courts, end to corruption (good look with that, the political opposition is pretty hopeless in that way afaik) and a "more democratic" system in general.

Funnily enough, the "terribly undemocratic" system in Ukraine isn't that different from what it is for example in the US. The biggest party is the winner, regardless of how much of the popular vote they actually get. However, in a multiparty system this has created a situation where the divided opposition feels it has been scammed out of power.

Which is both true (this was deliberate on the part of the ruling party) and false (really the opposition shoot itself in the foot by not being able to unite and play the system like it's designed).
You are ignoring which outside nation is benefiting most from deterioration of Ukrainian democracy. I'll give you a clue.... it's Russia.

Last year, Ukraine was all set to ratify a EU trade deal worth about $1 billion. The deal was contingent on judicial reform and the freeing of political prisoners. Russia swooped in and offered them a $15 billion bailout to NOT do make those democratic reforms... and also acquired a Black Sea naval port and other interests in the process. Basically, the government decided to sell democracy in order to placate Russia's fear of growing western influence.

The Russia-EU forces, and what they mean for Ukrainian democracy, shouldn't be understated.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:57 PM   #37
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You are ignoring which outside nation is benefiting most from deterioration of Ukrainian democracy. I'll give you a clue.... it's Russia.

Last year, Ukraine was all set to ratify a EU trade deal worth about $1 billion. The deal was contingent on judicial reform and the freeing of political prisoners. Russia swooped in and offered them a $15 billion bailout to NOT do make those democratic reforms... and also acquired a Black Sea naval port and other interests in the process. Basically, the government decided to sell democracy in order to placate Russia's fear of growing western influence.

The Russia-EU forces, and what they mean for Ukrainian democracy, shouldn't be understated.
If Ukraine wants to distance themselves from Russia then they're going to have to be more proactive than simply protesting in the streets.

Russia nixed the Ukraine/EU deal via simple blackmail. If they really want to get out from under the Czar's thumb then they're going to have to start by at least being somewhat independent. Otherwise they'll simply slip out from under one Czar's thumb and under another's.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:35 PM   #38
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And somehow, the Simpsons managed to predict Putin's plans, even before he came into power.

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=11391#.UwfT-PlkR8E
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:52 PM   #39
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And somehow, the Simpsons managed to predict Putin's plans, even before he came into power.

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=11391#.UwfT-PlkR8E
NSFW- swear

Spoiler!
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:54 PM   #40
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this should be so much more of an issue here in Alberta than it is currently - after 3 or 4 generations equalling how many 10s or 100s of thousands of modern Albertans who can claim Ukrainian blood.
Such a shame for a great country with so much potential...

Oh and the Russian half? you're talking about under 20% of Ukraines population
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